How would you have played this?
 

(I couldn't get the converter to work for me... so I tried to clean it up the best I could)

Empire .25/.50 NL Texas Hold'em

Seat 1: Machine0 ( $97) - <font color="orange">Button</font>
Seat 2: CaseyCrowell ( $63.80)
Seat 3: sharadrao ( $221.50)
Seat 4: I_scream_man ( $42)
Seat 5: DougEMoldy ( $50)
Seat 6: Mr_Alco ( $52.70)
Seat 7: <font color="blue"> Hero </font> ( $57.60)
Seat 8: sflynn ( $61.90)
Seat 9: fc_smokey ( $53.90)
Seat 10: zero_point ( $43.75)

CaseyCrowell posts small blind (0.25)
sharadrao posts big blind (0.50)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to <font color="blue"> Hero </font> [ 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
I_scream_man folds.
DougEMoldy raises (2) to 2
Mr_Alco folds.
<font color="blue"> Hero </font> calls (2)
fc_smokey folds.
zero_point folds.
Machine0 calls (2)
CaseyCrowell folds.
sharadrao folds.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]

DougEMoldy bets (5)
<font color="blue"> Hero </font> calls (5)
Machine0 raises (10) to 10
DougEMoldy calls (5)
Hero calls (5)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]

DougEMoldy checks.
<font color="blue"> Hero </font> checks.
Machine0 bets (15)
DougEMoldy calls (15)
<font color="blue"> Hero </font> raises (45.60) to 45.60
<font color="blue"> Hero </font> is all-In.
Machine0: 66?
Machine0 calls (30.60)
DougEMoldy calls (23)
DougEMoldy is all-In.

** Dealing River ** : [ 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]

Creating Main Pot with $147.75 with DougEMoldy
Creating Side Pot 1 with $15.20 with Hero

I've been going over this hand and am not sure what I could have done differently.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

fold the flop or raise the flop.

you want to drive out flush draw and fold out missed overs.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

Fold pre-flop.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

c'mon... this ain't a limit game.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

i thought he was on the button, but yeah in middle position this is a fold preflop.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

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Fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

c'mon... this ain't a limit game.

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why is this a call in NL but a fold in limit?

Re: How would you have played this?
 

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Fold pre-flop.

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c'mon... this ain't a limit game.

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Your calling a UTG 4*bb raise in MP with 54s, this is -EV. Aside from the pre-flop play, flop is questionable. The turn card is perfect and your push is fine, the river is just plain unlucky unless someone flopped a set.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold the flop or raise the flop.

you want to drive out flush draw and fold out missed overs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough... but I had EP on a big pair (AA, KK, QQ) and was a little worried that if I raised, then he might push. (I didn't really put the button on anything at that point... although I knew a flush draw was a possibility.)

I know the call was a little loose, but I figured if I called, then the button would also probably call and I'd have the odds. Also, if I hit my straight and EP did have AA or KK, I'd probably get a lot more out of him.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

odds to what? 6 outs with a possible redraw?

Re: How would you have played this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

c'mon... this ain't a limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is this a call in NL but a fold in limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm looking to bust the guy if I can... I can't do that in limit, but I can in NL... especially if he's got KK or AA and I hit on the flop.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

fair enough. it works better when there isn't anybody behind you to call with you and draw to something better, reraise preflop and force you to fold, etc...

you also can't get folding equity against PFR should he flop missed overs because there is somebody to act behind you.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

This is a tough hand. The general rule is slow down when the board is paired, but in a raised pot and that flop, it's hard to put someone on a made full house on the flop.

That six on the turn made your straight, but put a credible full house on the board, too, so I am pretty sure I would not have raised at that point. Gutless? maybe. I don't know. I am interested in seeing what the others have had to say about this hand.

I have played against Machine0 (and zero_point), however. Without saying anything in more detail, I think that specific player being in this hand complicates the analysis, and, for that reason, I am not going to say it was wrong to raise.

Tough situation. I guess my spineless self tries to get from the turn to the river as cheaply as possible.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

it's a marginal preflop call but that's been covered. If you were wanting to take the pot down on the turn, the correct move was to open push the turn. As it was they basically have to call with a flush draw because they've each put in 15 and it's only 30 more to them...and a flush draw is likely all that they could have that beats you. Someone might have a naked 3, which also kills you on that river. Your hand doesn't look like the full house because anybody with a full house wouldn't push the turn because they don't care if a flush hits, in fact they are praying for a flush to hit. You basically let them know what your hand was and that it was still ok to draw out on you, and you gave them the odds to do so. Open push the turn.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

I'll concede the pre-flop call in that position was a little iffy... especially with enough hands behind me to make the post-flop play problematic (as this very hand demonstrates!)

And I think I agree that my move should have probably been to open-push on the turn. I had him on either a flush draw or a three after the flop raise and I would normally have played this a little faster, I gambled a little that he would bet (and not take the free card) and I was going to check-raise him (and then hope a diamond doesn't come... or the board pairs).

I now realize that this was asking for trouble.

As it turned out, the EP had the AA that I thought he did, but the button had 22 and I was drawing dead by the turn anyway.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

Preflop is not significant here, c'mon its only 2$ it cant be big mistake.
I would fold on the flop. You dont know how many (if any) outs you have and the chances that you will stack anybody if you hit are very slim. Clear fold.

Best wishes

Re: How would you have played this?
 

fold preflop...what if its raised later? maybe call in LP, definitely not in MP. open push turn. anyone that's saying a raise here will call an open push.

you got lucky, don't expect to do it again.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is not significant here, c'mon its only 2$ it cant be big mistake.
I would fold on the flop. You dont know how many (if any) outs you have and the chances that you will stack anybody if you hit are very slim. Clear fold.

Best wishes

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Agreed. The $2 investment preflop is a mistake in your position only because players behind you may force you out of the hand (or force you to re-invest) with a reraise.

Given that, I dislike the flop play more. You invested preflop to hit a monster flop on occasion against a big hand and stack that hand. You missed.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

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Preflop is not significant here, c'mon its only 2$ it cant be big mistake.
I would fold on the flop. You dont know how many (if any) outs you have and the chances that you will stack anybody if you hit are very slim. Clear fold.

Best wishes

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The $2 investment preflop is a mistake in your position only because players behind you may force you out of the hand (or force you to re-invest) with a reraise.

Given that, I dislike the flop play more. You invested preflop to hit a monster flop on occasion against a big hand and stack that hand. You missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reinvest? Implied odds only go so far. Someone raises to $6 you're going to call, but I really don't like it.

Also, on a completely different note, in the situation that unfolded, remember that if someone has AA (not probably, but possible) then you lose 4 outs. Now you have an inside straight draw. You going to draw to that?

Re: How would you have played this?
 

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Preflop is not significant here, c'mon its only 2$ it cant be big mistake.
I would fold on the flop. You dont know how many (if any) outs you have and the chances that you will stack anybody if you hit are very slim. Clear fold.

Best wishes

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The $2 investment preflop is a mistake in your position only because players behind you may force you out of the hand (or force you to re-invest) with a reraise.

Given that, I dislike the flop play more. You invested preflop to hit a monster flop on occasion against a big hand and stack that hand. You missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reinvest? Implied odds only go so far. Someone raises to $6 you're going to call, but I really don't like it.

Also, on a completely different note, in the situation that unfolded, remember that if someone has AA (not probably, but possible) then you lose 4 outs. Now you have an inside straight draw. You going to draw to that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. That's why I said it was a mistake. Drawing on that flop is a poor play.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

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Given that, I dislike the flop play more. You invested preflop to hit a monster flop on occasion against a big hand and stack that hand. You missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I wasn't looking to flop a draw, I was looking to flop a monster (i.e. made straight, trips, etc..). I should have folded.

An additional mistake was not looking forward to what might actually happen even if I were to hit my straight... would I have the nuts? What do I do if the button raises? What if EP pushes? etc... I was only concentrating on my draw.

Re: How would you have played this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, on a completely different note, in the situation that unfolded, remember that if someone has AA (not probably, but possible) then you lose 4 outs. Now you have an inside straight draw. You going to draw to that?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that I didn't even notice until I read your post (talk about missing the forest for the trees! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

I was thinking that if EP had the AA, I would still have 6 outs... completely diregarding the fact that if he hits the A on the turn, he's got a boat. (How in the world did I miss that?) So, yes... the real answer here is:

A) Probably fold pre-flop. With poor position, if there are callers behind me, this makes post flop play very difficult.

B) Definitely fold on the flop. I missed my monster and even if I do make one of my 4 outs (possibly only 3 as the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] may make the flush), I'm still not necessarily a prohibitive favorite against a big pair and a potential flush draw.

Thanks for all the help, guys!

Re: How would you have played this?
 

i'd fold the flop...i don't like drawing to a straight on a paired/flush draw board. you could hit your draw and still be behind.