Isolating a TAG
 

UTG+1 was a TAG. I've been finding success in isolating TAG-type players who limp in EP. Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP - I find it easy to steal a lot of pots on the flop/turn when my isolation is successful.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

I was almost positive that I was ahead with top pair on the flop. The turn stop'n'go was confusing to say the least. I feel sick reviewing this hand and looking at my call down. Comment/Discuss/Berate. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that given this the river is a fold?

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

Isn't the idea of isolating the tag to take away the small pot when he misses the flop? I find that when I get played back at, especially in only a semi-aggressive fashion, that the tag actually has a hand. I think I'd have folded the turn here and looked for a better place.

Incidentally, if you've been isolating him enough that it's bugging him, then the donkbet probably shows more strength than a flop 3-bet or a turn c/r.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

based on their PT stats, for the blinds fold enough for this to be a succesfful isolation move most of the time??

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

SeaEagle - This is the first time I had the opportunity to isolate him like this.

Deac - I felt certain enough that the blinds would fold out here.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

Crunchy:

[ QUOTE ]
I've been finding success in isolating TAG-type players who limp in EP. Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP - I find it easy to steal a lot of pots on the flop/turn when my isolation is successful.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. But to do it with A2o OTB, I would like to know that the blinds are very likely to stay out of my way. If they are loose, I would pass.

Anyone like a turn raise for a free showdown? I think I do...especially if you plan on going call, call.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think that given this the river is a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a good question. My range for Villian here was something along the lines of Axs, Kxs, 22-88, possibly suited connectors/one-gaps.

Put yourself in Villian's shoes. What range are you putting me on when I raise PF and raise the flop.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
to do it with A2o OTB, I would like to know that the blinds are very likely to stay out of my way. If they are loose, I would pass.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed - as I said previously (probably while you were composing this post) I had no quams about folding out the blinds.

Incidentally, I think folding out hands can be marginally more successful when the player you're isolating is a decent player. There aren't many players that are aware but, the decent, better ones (which are the most likely to be paying attention) will generally notice that you're isolating another good player and will probably fold some higher quality hands than normal - giving you credit for a premuim holding that you can raise another good player with.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

Well you are defenetely behind a Tag's EP limp range preflop... the problem then becomes whether or not raising and stealing flops against small pocket pairs will occur often enough to make up the difference.

You also have to consider the blinds since they will wake up with hands sometimes. If the blinds are tight they are likely only playing back with hands that have you in big trouble. I don't know if the preflop play is +EV or not, but I'd probably wait for something a bit better than A2o.

Postflop, if I was going to fold anywhere it would be the turn. Either he is trying to donk/3-bet you or is afraid of giving a free card. Even if the latter is true he will sometimes be ahead of you.

Once you get to the river you have to call.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

I'd fold preflop, call the flop, raise the turn, and check the river most likely.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

What is the weakest hand that you'd make this iso-raise with?

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
My range for Villian here was something along the lines of Axs, Kxs, 22-88, possibly suited connectors/one-gaps.

Put yourself in Villian's shoes. What range are you putting me on when I raise PF and raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
So assuming you have a tight image, he's going to put you on a premium hand. And when an AKx flops and you raise him he's going to assume he's in some trouble, since he's not going to have you on a flush draw because you're not raising PF from EP w/ KQs or lower. Agreed?

So based on the range you have him on and the range he presumably has you on, what do you think he's donk betting the turn with?

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the weakest hand that you'd make this iso-raise with?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on his postflop play and the blind's tightness/looseness. I'm apt to raise with my standard hands in this situation, though. KTs+, ATo+, A9s+, 77+ type of stuff. Depends on what I think of his game postflop.

Isolating TAGs is something that should only be done when the TAG isn't really a TAG, but more of a tight, selective preflop player who sucks and likes to give up postflop.

Rob

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isolating TAGs is something that should only be done when the TAG isn't really a TAG, but more of a tight, selective preflop player who sucks and likes to give up postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I operate under the general assumption that a 2/4 TAG - at least statistically and until proven otherwise - generally fits this category. It's not neccessarily that they suck - but more so that they're very predictable. Which leads to this post given that I felt his turn stop'n'go was not something I felt was predictable.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isolating TAGs is something that should only be done when the TAG isn't really a TAG, but more of a tight, selective preflop player who sucks and likes to give up postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I operate under the general assumption that a 2/4 TAG - at least statistically and until proven otherwise - generally fits this category. It's not neccessarily that they suck - but more so that they're very predictable. Which leads to this post given that I felt his turn stop'n'go was not something I felt was predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

His turn stop and go generally means that he thinks you're on a flush draw because he sucks at reading hands, or that he just hit 2pr with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and is hoping to bet-3bet your ass.

I honestly think you're behind here no the turn often enough to fold against the sort of player you're assuming you're up against.

Rob

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
So based on the range you have him on and the range he presumably has you on, what do you think he's donk betting the turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

I thought I had a a reasonable chance at holding the best hand. And a decent chance to improve if I didn't (including hidden outs to a chop or take the lead). I had position so I was guaranteed to see showdown for 2BBs at the most.

Someone had suggested the idea of raising the turn for a free showdown. I don't think that would be correct here because I want to see a showdown and raising the turn would force me into folding to a 3-bet. I'm not defending my call-call line because I'm not sure that's right either - but, I'm pretty confident that spewing extra chips when you're in a state of confusion isn't a very good idea.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

I think you are taking this isolation thing too far.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was almost positive that I was ahead with top pair on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Just curious why you felt this. Was there some history between you both?

There's no need to call this down after he bets the turn. You've shown plenty of strength and he keeps betting. The least he could have on the turn is K-X [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but that's not likely. He may be betting with the intention of 3 betting you when you raise with 9-9, or he is testing the waters with two pair or some suited ace that is better than yours.

If I were in your shoes I would have called down from the flop on with no raises at all. Betting a draw into a board like that doesn't make sense with a tight player, and if you are ahead, you don't want to scare him off anything else.

edit - I like the idea of isolating the weak tighties, but you might want a little more hand than this in case one of the blinds has something.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 was a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this makes sense to me, and I think your isolation move is a bad one. TAG's don't limp first in with crap, and a big chunk of those hands are crap -- especially the way your table seems to play, with a whole bunch of folding and no limping. In fact, the only limper here is the supposed TAG.

If a TAG limps up front, it's usually a small to mid-pocket pair, or a low-suited ace. You're behind all of those. And that's -if- he limps, which, if he's a TAG, he probably wont.

Some will limp with KQs and KJs, but most TAGs are raising the KQ and dumping the KJs depending on the game.

Nothing about your plan makes sense to me. You isolated a good player with a bad hand and then take an approach designed to pay him off.

ElSapo

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So based on the range you have him on and the range he presumably has you on, what do you think he's donk betting the turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

I thought I had a a reasonable chance at holding the best hand. And a decent chance to improve if I didn't (including hidden outs to a chop or take the lead). I had position so I was guaranteed to see showdown for 2BBs at the most.

Someone had suggested the idea of raising the turn for a free showdown. I don't think that would be correct here because I want to see a showdown and raising the turn would force me into folding to a 3-bet. I'm not defending my call-call line because I'm not sure that's right either - but, I'm pretty confident that spewing extra chips when you're in a state of confusion isn't a very good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested the idea of raising the turn, but only after you call the flop (and again, this is dependent on whether or not you think TAG is aggressive enough to bet a draw).

After you raise the flop, your turn range is WAY too wide for him. He's got you beat pretty often and while calling down is better than raising (after your flop play), folding is probably better than calling.

This is why I fold A2o after a TAG limps.

Rob

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making him fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making him fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - Is this a joke?

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are taking this isolation thing too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you. i thought i was taking crazy pills.

and since i'm new here, i didn't have the balls to say anything.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

A2o, huh? like any other commonly-used term, TAG is used so often by players of various levels of experience that your definition of a "TAG" might be relatively different than that of another player with either more or less understanding of the game. if you have had success isolating "TAG"-type players in the past i would reexamine those hands and compare the probable factors that led to the success. regardless, it sounds like you are essentially trying to steal the pot. the key to this being a profitable play(if it is at all, but that goes back to the subjectivity of your use of the word TAG)is to know when you are beat and release the hand(i.e. the turn). spiking that A was probably one of the worst cards for you as it gave you a reason to hang on. also, have you been doing this often enough that the alleged TAG might have been observant enough to notice? maybe he just thought, "hey i'm in this hand with this calling station that does some occasional stealing, i can value bet until the cows come home." [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] seriously though, he is not worried about AK which is a reasonable holding for a PFR so either he thinks you are full of sh*t(because you have been over-using the play?) or he has two pair beat(his turn bet seems to be hoping for a raise IMO). either way you seem to be in a less than profitable situation.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP - I find it easy to steal a lot of pots on the flop/turn when my isolation is successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah, talk about reverse tilt. Fold preflop.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

I'd put him on ATs or AJo in this situation and that action
after betting out turn.

If he is a 6% raiser those are probable hands.
If he is 8%+ then he'll raise'em preflop.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was almost positive that I was ahead with top pair on the flop. The turn stop'n'go was confusing to say the least. I feel sick reviewing this hand and looking at my call down. Comment/Discuss/Berate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess. UTG+1 had ATo or AJo. I don't like this isolation raise as his limping hands from EP may well dominate your Ace-rag offsuit hand. I would just fold pre-flop.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been finding success in isolating TAG-type players who limp in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

w/ A2o... no, stop

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making her fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - Is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey sorry I didn't get to finish the post when I started it. Yes I am being serious. Not saying that making your opponent fold is often a correct strategy, but if it is your goal to do this, doing it with 32o gives you the best chance to make him fold. For one, it gives the best opporunity for scare cards to come up that will cause the tight player to fold. It is also extremely unlikely that you will hit a hand that you may think is good (like top pair, no kicker), or one that actually is good but you have to fold because of pressure. Overall, the only way for you to win here is by bluffing, so you are wasting the least value from any mediocre hand. This isn't a play I would make or recommend making, but if your outset from the start is to get her to fold, then your worst hands are the best for this, because you are sacrificing the least. More comments expected and welcome.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing about your plan makes sense to me. You isolated a good player with a bad hand and then take an approach designed to pay him off.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure people are giving crunchy enough credit for recognizing a good situation. If a predictable tag limps, he's not going to have a power hand and he's not going to chase it too hard after the flop. If you can successfully isolate this tag, it's probably a profitable situation regardless of the cards you hold. I don't think this play is very advisable at Party 2/4 because someone is pretty much always going to call your raise and rain on your parade. However, the only information I have is that Crunchy iso-raised and it worked. So I have to assume he correctly assessed the various factors and picked one of the rare situations where he could get away with it.

I think his play after the flop could be improved. But I'll take heads up, in position, with the lead, and against a tag who doesn't really like his hand all day long - with pretty much any 2 cards.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd put him on ATs or AJo in this situation and that action
after betting out turn.

If he is a 6% raiser those are probable hands.
If he is 8%+ then he'll raise'em preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, i am an 11% PFR and i rarely raise AJo UTG pre-flop .

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure people are giving crunchy enough credit for recognizing a good situation

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, people are making too much of it. We don't know what kind of TAG this player is, but isolating a TAG limper with an ace who will fold if he misses the flop is not that bad of a play. There are a lot of conditions to be met, though. He must be willing to fold, you must have a solid image (that is important, as a loose image will encourage a calldown), and the blinds must clear out of the way. Even if you are dominated, you may win the pot anyway if you both miss.

The post flop calldown after the turn bet is worse than the preflop raise. People should focus more on that.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

Given your description, when the TAG bets out on the turn, he has at least an Ace. Fold the turn.

If you're going to try and make plays like this, you need to be able to get away from your trash when the TAG shows some strength. He's starting with a better hand than you, and you're counting on being able to fold out some hands that beat you because he missed the flop. If he's not folding, calling him down is just paying off a better Ace (or two-pair, or a set)

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]

The post flop calldown after the turn bet is worse than the preflop raise. People should focus more on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think people are concerned about the pre-flop raise here BECAUSE of the postflop calldown.

my feeling is (and again i'm relatively new here so excuse me if i sound too bold), if you're gonna isolate pre-flop with trash, then you better be damn sure of your ability to play better than him postflop.

now i've seen other posts from crunchy and i know he's a solid player, and in fact he's sure helped me out before. that's why this one confused me a ton.

whether you hit an ace or not doesn't really matter. the goal is to take it down on the flop or turn. if you can't do that, then you gotta let it go. if you can't let it go, then you probably shouldn't isolate with A2o.

villain likes his hand -- most people don't stop-and-go with hands they don't like. and since he did this, that completely takes away your ability to take it down, unless you think he'll fold to a turn raise. and i'd bet that he won't.

hero's hand has very little showdown value at this point. the comment about hidden outs to a chop kind of concerns me too. you shouldn't be isolating if it puts you in the situation of hoping to draw out to a chop.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
my feeling is (and again i'm relatively new here so excuse me if i sound too bold), if you're gonna isolate pre-flop with trash, then you better be damn sure of your ability to play better than him postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, that is 100% correct. The preflop raise in and of itself is not so bad, but hero ignored the information he received along the way telling him top pair no kicker is no good. It appears he was outplayed.

I was more responding to the people who had nothing more to offer than "Pre-flop bad - ugh."

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
He must be willing to fold, you must have a solid image (that is important, as a loose image will encourage a calldown), and the blinds must clear out of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks to me like none of these conditions were satisfied. The BB called, his opponent didn't fold and while there's no talk of image that I recall, the first two don't support a great image.



[ QUOTE ]
I was more responding to the people who had nothing more to offer than "Pre-flop bad - ugh."

[/ QUOTE ]

We may just disagree here. And we may be talking about different kinds of TAGs, I guess. But it looks like we've isolated a tight, aggro player with a hand that is almost certainly behind -- the entire idea being that if he misses, we'll win. Except, we're not going to know if and when he misses.

There's some risk he limped with a better ace - ATs, AJ, etc. I raise those, but whatever, these are potential limping hands. There's also a risk he limped with a middle to small pocket pair, 22-99 or something, assuming he'd raise TT and up.

Personally, I don't see a TAG limping with 76s or KTs in a game that just folded to the CO.

So, if he's got a middle-to-decent ace or a middle pocket pair, I just don't see this being a good play. Worst case scenario - you both make top pair. Which is pretty close to what happened here, it looks like.

Or the flop is rags, and you can't move him off his little pair because he (correctly) puts you on over(s).

Now, that assumes a lot about our TAG. If you can put him on a broader range of hands for limping first in, maybe the isolation is good. The problem is, given the player and the game conditions that apparently exist, something doesn't fit. Maybe he just isn't a TAG.

But whatever, we've managed to isolate (almost, the BB came along) our opponent, and now we make the best and worst possible hand. Even going call-call-call is to some degree admitting defeat. "I isolated you, but we can't play."

It just seems to me like too many conditions have to be met - he has to have the right kind of hand, we need the right kind of flop, and we need to get him to roll over.

And we're gonna do this playing one card.

So no, I don't like it. Personally, I like it when people isolate me with crap. It's true, I do fold some hands. I probably fold some winners. But I also take down some big pots, and I see those players consistently losing.

I'm not saying hero is a losing player, for the record -- I'm just saying I'm not isolating a TAG with A2. As someone said, if the idea is to make him fold then what does it matter which cards you hold? And I think raising with 23o is a bad idea also.

The difference between isolating with A2o and 22 is huge, but I figure everyone sees that. With 22, if you know he's a TAG and he knows your a TAG, it's entirely possible, likely and occurs frequently that you get called to the river and paid off by AK/AQ. Happens all the time. But if it gets to the river and you haven't improved your A2, you're not winning the pot except in rare missed-draw scenarios.

ElSapo

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
And we may be talking about different kinds of TAGs, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. In the orignal post, he was giving off the impression he could easily push this guy off of a hand. This guy donkbet twice, so he's no pushover. Also, the isolation play didn't work. So hero misread the opponent and the table.

But, again, the bigger mistake is wasting all those big bets postflop when it looks like you are behind. I know you agree with that. I can forgive the 1BB spent preflop if you have a read you are going with and it turns out to be wrong. I can't forgive pissing away 2BBs on the turn and river, though.

I agree the preflop raise is stretching the isolation play. I said in my first post that he should probably wait for a better hand and that he'll dislike it when the BB calls. The postflop play is what really cost him here, though.

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I like it when people isolate me with crap. It's true, I do fold some hands. I probably fold some winners. But I also take down some big pots, and I see those players consistently losing.


[/ QUOTE ]
I would guess I isolate with crap at least twice a night. I also raise UTG with weak hands (97s) on occasion. And I steal the blinds with total crap all the time. And, overall, I make a profit with these plays. But I almost never lose a big pot with these hands.

The problem with this hand wasn't preflop, it was chasing when his opponent didn't miss the flop. Once Crunchy got it 3-handed, he's probably a 2-1 favorite to win the hand. Unfortunately, this wasn't that time. If he posts this and the flop (or turn) action goes "Villian checks, Hero bets, [BB folds], Villian folds", everybody goes "Nice read. Well played".

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, again, the bigger mistake is wasting all those big bets postflop when it looks like you are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but I'd probably play this call-call-call post-flop. I'm there, I put myself there, and I'm not folding. This might be an error, but how big of one I'm not sure.

Give that he raised the flop, I think you can dump the turn, especially given that he's supposedly a TAG.

So had I played the hand, I'd have lost either...

0 BB, b/c I fold PF
3 BB, b/c I call down from the flop on
1.5 BB b/c I raised the flop and folded to the turn bet

Oddly, I think 3 or 0 is the right answer. But I do understand what you mean post-flop.

And why are we raising the flop? To get the BB out? He's either ahead or drawing thin. If he check-raises the flop, we can fold. If he calls the flop, we can probably forget it on the turn.

ElSapo

Re: Isolating a TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making her fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - Is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey sorry I didn't get to finish the post when I started it. Yes I am being serious. Not saying that making your opponent fold is often a correct strategy, but if it is your goal to do this, doing it with 32o gives you the best chance to make him fold. For one, it gives the best opporunity for scare cards to come up that will cause the tight player to fold. It is also extremely unlikely that you will hit a hand that you may think is good (like top pair, no kicker), or one that actually is good but you have to fold because of pressure. Overall, the only way for you to win here is by bluffing, so you are wasting the least value from any mediocre hand. This isn't a play I would make or recommend making, but if your outset from the start is to get her to fold, then your worst hands are the best for this, because you are sacrificing the least. More comments expected and welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooooooor, you just just fold your trash preflop. Why get involved with good players with trash hands? I don't get it.