My Poker Logic
 

Well in my previous post I described how I hit a downswing and went from a bankroll of 1000 to 300 and then decided to study hands and change my game and havent looked back since.

Well basically I ran my bankroll to 1000 playin pretty much how all the regular poker books adviced to play, very tight preflop, only taking flops with the best hands and betting the max with any A/A hand. Of course as soon as I ran bad I got run over.

When I was down to 300 I analyzed my hands and since I had no Pot Limit Omaha books at the time I decided to create my own style that went against most books. I decided that I would raise the same amount with any hand I liked and not just aces. I would also not pot it preflop because I wanted to create big pots, not heads up matches where someone could hit a miracle flop and break me. So I essentially started playing a loose aggressive style. I took a lot of flops and outplayed everyone after the flop even if they outplayed me somewhat preflop.

Ever since then I havent looked back and I have been doing nothing, but winning. However I hear a lot of people say you gotta play more aggressive preflop, you gotta play less hands, and all this other stuff from a friend of mine that plays poker among others. I wonder can someone win long term being loose aggressive. My decisions after the flop are usually flawless, I dont experience wild swings or anything. The most I ever lose in one day is 2 buy ins. The most I win in one day is 5 buy ins. I usually average 1.5 buy ins a day. I ran horrible for a week, I kept getting rivered at every spot and everything seemed to go wrong, at the end of the week I had lost, 0. I had broken even.

I am having doubts about my game because every book I read except maybe "How good is your Pot Limit Omaha?" pretty much says my style is insane and that I should play less hands. A friend tells me dont mess with success, but another is like wow you play a lot of hands, madness. Books also say is madness, which makes me wonder.

I want to be the best player I can be, but I tried playing tight aggressive for a week and I kept losing because I would commit a lot of money preflop with A/A and I could no longer make decisions after the flop because it was too big to fold. This completely eliminated my edge of outplaying people after the flop and of course I lost for that week.

Its just so hard to find the perfect way to play, im not even sure there is one? I hear people say this and that, but I just cant play like the books say and cant play how people say? Am I wrong for thinking this way? Should I just play how I always do? Can a loose aggressive player be a long time winner? This has also been on my mind a lot, so much that I wasted a week playing like the books and other people told me to, only to lose money. I of course got it all back plus interest using my style, but still, maybe I was unlucky that particular week?

Re: My Poker Logic
 

Why change if it's working?

Re: My Poker Logic
 

I dont know because I want to be the best player I can be, I dont know if the way I play can go far.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

From your prior post, you seem to have a knack for self-analysis of hands. If it stops working, you can figure out why.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
so much that I wasted a week playing like the books and other people told me to, only to lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. A whole week.

Seems your basing this one week at a time. Way too shortterm. No matter how you play, you will have losing weeks/months. Given the sample, I doubt your decisions postflop were as flawless as you may think. Unless you can explain the concept behind every bet you put in on all streets and the theory behind it.

Eventually you will run into players who will gladly take advantage of your loose aggressive style.

b

Re: My Poker Logic
 

I played 7000 hands that week, I play 1000-1200 hands a day. I have used my style against every type of player I have encountered in the 100-400 levels because thats all I can afford right now. Most of them are unable to do much because I dont commit myself to pots preflop, so I play everything post flop, I do specially well against maniacs. I have broken every maniac I run into they are the opponents I beat the easiest and make the most money from. Because they play as many pots as I do except they make worst decisions post flops and their raises really dont mean much to me as I dont ever tilt which is something I dont think I have mentioned. I have also run into tight players, I mostly steal pots from them and am able to read them pretty easily.

The only thing I think a lot about is people who might not play as many hands as me and play well after the flop, but I think most people try this approach. I mean it seems to be the most logical approach, but I am extremely tricky after the flop, I can get people to do a lot of things without them realizing they are really pushing the worse hand. Not only that but if you take this approach which is something I used to do before, you are as easy to read as a book. I mean its really obvious when solid players have something, its very easy to make laydowns against them. The truth is I have never encountered anyone that beat me consistently without miracles on the river, and those people eventually give it all back plus interest. Which makes me working on my game specially difficult because I dont really have the bankroll to play any higher and probably wont for a while, but I dont know, sometimes I wonder if I think too much about the game. Also what style of player you think would give me trouble? Who do you think could take advantage of my play?

Re: My Poker Logic
 

Style is a huge issue. See my essays on this.

Poker Playing Style Part 1

Poker Playing Style Part 2

I believe you must develop a style unique to your temperament, risk tolerance and personality. This conserves energy and creates opportunities to play in "the zone".

Especially in tournaments.

Basically I think you play a base style that works and then you vary from there with intentional adjustments based on the situations.


You must develop your own style. This is impossible without intentionally introspecting about yourself and your relationship with your game.

Be careful, or you'll expand your consciousness.

See also:
Poker and Introspection

Re: My Poker Logic
 

Pushing AAxx hands preflop is hard to do in the lower limit online games. These are much more postflop-oriented tables. Since you can rarely get even 1/10 of your stack in preflop at a lot of these tables, pushing only a few hands preflop makes you easy to beat postflop (by players with decent odds to call preflop).

If you are really winning at the rate you mentioned, it shouldn't be hard to build up a bankroll for higher limits.

keep being analytical, and you'll be fine.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

There's no ultimate strategy that can make you a significant long term winner against every table that you play PLO against. Your game should be based more on your opponents.

For instance, I play alot of NLHE ring games in my area.

On Mondays, most of the table is pretty tight, so I play loose-aggressive, making more bluffs and semi-bluffs than I normally would. After an hour or two, the table loosens up a little(because of all the action), so I value bet more while I bluff less. When they take notice of how many winning hands I've shown, I start bluffing again.

On Tuesdays, I play with a few calling stations, so I start off by playing tight aggressive. I'll still switch gears every now and then if I see a bluffing opportunity, but this is mainly to show the bluff and increase the return on later big value bets.

Thursdays, loose-aggressive, Fridays, tight-aggressive.

My strategy is always based on my opponents, and I think if you paid attention to why your loose aggressive style is successful in the games you play, you would be able to understand why that style wouldn't work in a game with completely different opponents.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe you must develop a style unique to your temperament, risk tolerance and personality. This conserves energy and creates opportunities to play in "the zone".


[/ QUOTE ]

I think ive experienced that, some of my plays as of late have been almost like I could see their cards. I dont know why I made them, I posted a hand in another board and they were like you are crazy to make that play, but I knew it was not only the correct play, but that it would work before it did I dont know if I can put it into words.


[ QUOTE ]
Pushing AAxx hands preflop is hard to do in the lower limit online games. These are much more postflop-oriented tables. Since you can rarely get even 1/10 of your stack in preflop at a lot of these tables, pushing only a few hands preflop makes you easy to beat postflop (by players with decent odds to call preflop).


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the problem right there, you dont get enough of your stack in there to make potting it with aces profitable or even the correct play. All you do is basically say by the way guys I got aces, feel free to try and draw out on me.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are really winning at the rate you mentioned, it shouldn't be hard to build up a bankroll for higher limits.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly the 400 tables arent very good often, and the 200 tables are also terrible most of the time. The only good ones are the 100 tables. So im winning about 150 a day. So itll be a while before I can play in the 1000 level.

[ QUOTE ]
There's no ultimate strategy that can make you a significant long term winner against every table that you play PLO against. Your game should be based more on your opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats pretty much what I do, most of the 100 players are either people who dont know what they are doing or solid players, so my play style beats both of those, probably the reason behind me playing the way I do.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]

Well basically I ran my bankroll to 1000 playin pretty much how all the regular poker books adviced to play, very tight preflop, only taking flops with the best hands and betting the max with any A/A hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which books say always raise the maximum with AAxx? That seems wrong by a lot. Very often you should limp/call or limp/reraise.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Which books say always raise the maximum with AAxx? That seems wrong by a lot. Very often you should limp/call or limp/reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth's book, I knew nothing I say, thats my excuse and im sticking to it.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly the 400 tables arent very good often, and the 200 tables are also terrible most of the time. The only good ones are the 100 tables. So im winning about 150 a day. So itll be a while before I can play in the 1000 level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying here. If you have a strategy that works against all styles, and the players at the 200 and 400 aren't very good, it seem that this should be more profitable. If on the other hand, your system doesn't pay off well at these games, then it doesn't seem to work against all styles. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, though.

As to your playing against the 'book'. I've long thought that there are certain games that are exploitable using what would otherwise be an unorthodox strategy. I played a 1/2 $100 NL Hold em game at Foxwoods recently where 7 or 8 tried to limp in every pot. The strategy, which worked for this session (not statistically valid) was to loosen up considerably with drawing hands because of the implied odds and punish the limpers when I got big hands, especially in position (kind of like a mega blind steal). I wouldn't say that this is the best way to play in most games, but 'felt' right for this game.

A better example, Sklansky and Malmuth came out with Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players -- which became the Bible for mid-limit games. Yet, they realized that this was not the optimal strategy for low limit games, hence Ed Miller's book. In other words, no single book is correct for every game. Eventually, the lucky few successful players reach the point where the 'book' is a guideline, and game conditions are more important.

It's very possible that your LAG style is correct for the particular game you're playing -- from your posts it sounds like you have a big enough sample that your results are likely not a fluke.

Unfortunately, as you move up, you may find that your whole system falls apart when you're playing with better players. The problem, of course is that you can't develop an optimal strategy for the better players while playing against the worse players.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly the 400 tables arent very good often, and the 200 tables are also terrible most of the time. The only good ones are the 100 tables. So im winning about 150 a day. So itll be a while before I can play in the 1000 level.


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand this. Do you think that 1000PLO/8 tables are easier then 200 or 400 ? If so I am going to put all my money there because 200 and 400 PLO/8 at Party can be crushed by weak tight nutpeddler who only plays nuts only bets nuts and only play A2 and AA hands preflop without all the trickery and looseness you developed. Also try PLO/8 at Paradise because there are often few people completely without a clue about the game (but there are many good regulars too). I dont think that jumping to 1000PLO/8 would be good idea...

Best wishes

Re: My Poker Logic
 

I think it might be worth your time to read the PLO section of Super System 2.

A huge difference between PLO and most other poker played today (ie, Holdem) is that the hand values run much closer together. In holdem you can get to be a 4 to 1 favorite pre-flop. In PLO, it is very rare to be a huge favorite pre-flop.

AAxy is not a huge favorite over a decent coordinated hand. I think that there are alot of beginning PLO players that actually lose money with this hand, since when they raise with it out of position, they are basically playing with two of their 4 cards face up. Good players take a flop with them with a hand like 689T double suited and break them.

This is not to say that playing very loose in PLO will be a good plan against decent players. You can probably get away with it in the lower online games though, as long as you pick hands that have some way of making a nut hand, you keep the pot reasonably small pre-flop, and you make sure to not play much out of position.

Position is everything PLO. In Tunica, they let people straddle from the button, and it happens all the time in the PLO games because a decent player has such a huge positional advantage.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand this. Do you think that 1000PLO/8 tables are easier then 200 or 400 ? If so I am going to put all my money there because 200 and 400 PLO/8 at Party can be crushed by weak tight nutpeddler who only plays nuts only bets nuts and only play A2 and AA hands preflop without all the trickery and looseness you developed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, its just the games arent always going, maybe the times I play have to do something with it, I mean the last few days at the times I was on I saw maybe 1 400 table, but some days theres a ton, its very unstable, the 200 tables are always there, but a lot of times they get full of rocks who wont give action to no one, including me and in that case its kind of worthless, but yeah when they are avaible and going, the 200 and 400 tables are very easy to beat with nut peddling, they just arent always going, the 2000 seems to always be going, but I dont know its hard to find a good big Pot Limit Omaha High Low game, hence the reason behind me also learning omaha high. I should go see the paradise tables if I want to make the most money I must hunt down games, lol.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

I have experienced the same thing playing low limit limit holdem. I was getting killed playing the tight(right) game. So I started seeing flops when I had the odds, you know getting 6:1, I see a flop for $4. Then you have to make great decisions.. Problem is that I stopped making great decisions, and my BR went from $1200 to $500 in about 14 hours.. I've been laboring about what has gone wrong with my game, and now I realize, bad post flop decisions...

Thanks for this post... and maybe you should write the book, you ever think of that? I don't believe that without the benefit of hindsight that there is a perfect way to play any of the poker games..

-Erik

Re: My Poker Logic
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for this post... and maybe you should write the book, you ever think of that? I don't believe that without the benefit of hindsight that there is a perfect way to play any of the poker games..


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know about me writting a book, im still working on my game and kind of too young to really say I have experience, maybe later, I rather not write a book right now that will be terrible and just a really lame attempt at money grabbing while poker is hot, I hate people who write poker books after playing 3 hands because they think they are gods gift to poker. So many terrible books out there, anyway, did you read my other post, you seemed to like this one, the other one in this forum was interesting as well, something to read, lol.

Re: My Poker Logic
 

i don't see anything wrong with you working on a book. so you're young and haven't been playing long - that's the hook. i've been keeping an eye on your omaha 8 posts and you seem to understand how someone with minimal feel for the more subjective elements of poker can thrive at low limit omaha 8 where the decisions are purely mathematical and one can take more advantage of others making poor decisions. your book could be marketed to those new to poker, but who are quite bright, and don't want to kicked around. i know plenty of people who i'd recommend it to.