NLTHE with the jokers
 

A friend of mine recently suggested we try playing one session of our weekly home game with the jokers in, just for kicks. I think it'd at least be interesting, but I can't quite get my head around the full scope of strategic and probability changes it would entail.

If you were in this game, how would you adjust your play?

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

wait for a joker

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

Just thinking out loud here...

-You'd always have top pair
-any hole hand of XJoker would be suited
-any hole hand of XJoker would be connectors
-any hole hand of XJoker would be a PP
-any hole hand of XJoker would be 1/2/3/4 gappers
-any hole hand of JokerJoker would always win or split
(any math guys wanna try the percentages or win/split for JokerJoker?)

...well I'd start praying for Jokers instead of Aces for one.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

You should fold any hand preflop that's not a pocket pair or Joker/x. My guess is that sets are still going to be pretty tough to beat, but any other hand is in terrible shape vs Joker/x. Any joker is a reraising hand preflop.

Similarly, you should put in pretty much infinite raises on any flop with a joker (since you have ridiculous odds to improve even if you're behind), and should proceed to call to the river with joker/x if you're playing limit, no matter what the board is.

Let's not even talk about a joker on the board. Full house or better to bet the river.

For a small stakes limit game, it might be interesting. For NL, this would be insane.

What does a joker-high flush count as?

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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For a small stakes limit game, it might be interesting. For NL, this would be insane.

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I think the idea was to play No Limit, but the more I think about it and the more you all theorize, the more I agree: that'd be f*ckin' madness.

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What does a joker-high flush count as?

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I don't know... would a joker-high flush split with the natural A-high nuts?

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

Well, you just have to find out really quickly in a hand if there are jokers involved and who has them.

Then take a good look and see how many cards a player needs to make a good hand with a certain community. If it's only one and you think your friend has a joker, it's folding time.

Me and my friends played like this before, dealer's choice wild cards. Sometimes deuces, sometimes black maria and the suicide king (my pick) and sometimes the one eyed jacks.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

If you need to go all-in at any point I would only do it with at least one joker. I remember my friend once suggested it after my tight image had them joking that I only play aces or better.

I remeber dealing through a lot of boards with different hands verses a joker-rag hand and the joker kicked all hands like no other.

I mean any time the board pairs, four flush, baby straight, ect. There are some exceptions but the joker has mighty power.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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Just thinking out loud here...

-You'd always have top pair
-any hole hand of XJoker would be suited
-any hole hand of XJoker would be connectors
-any hole hand of XJoker would be a PP
-any hole hand of XJoker would be 1/2/3/4 gappers
-any hole hand of JokerJoker would always win or split
(any math guys wanna try the percentages or win/split for JokerJoker?)

...well I'd start praying for Jokers instead of Aces for one.

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Man, can you imagine the power of pocket jokers?

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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A friend of mine recently suggested we try playing one session of our weekly home game with the jokers in, just for kicks. I think it'd at least be interesting, but I can't quite get my head around the full scope of strategic and probability changes it would entail.

If you were in this game, how would you adjust your play?

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As others on this thread have said, Holdem with wild cards would just be nutzola.

How 'bout trying this on for size. It's a game I just made up right now, on the spot. I call it Texas Roll 'Em.

Start the hand just like Holdem and play through the first betting round, to right before the flop. Then, starting with the last aggressor (or the BB in an unraised pot), each player still in the pot rolls over one of his hole cards in turn. Each player receives a new down card, then the flop is dealt. Betting proceeds from the left of the button as usual. After the flop action is complete, everyone rolls again (starting to the left of the button if no action) and is dealt a new down card. At this point, everyone still in the game has four cards, two of them face-up. The turn and river are played out per Holdem, with no more card rolling. Hand building follows Omaha rules -- you have to use two of your own cards and three of the board cards. You can use any two of your four cards -- both down cards, both up cards, or one of each. The game can be played high only, or high-low split.

So, what does this game give you?

1> Rolling cards up, in turn, gives you iteresting ways to strategize.

a> Bluffing takes on an interesting twist -- what happens if someone rolls over a card you are representing having?

b> You can play deceptivively by choosing which cards to roll

2> You see more cards, and see part of your opponents' hands like in Stud.

3> It's very much a fun-time drawing game, because of the extra two cards.


I would think this game actually would give a nice extra edge to someone knowledgeable, it would have a lot of appeal for gamblers, and the extra rules wouldn't be too hard for someone a little bit tipsy to follow. (I can say this because some of my family home games attained levels of convoluted insanity that makes this pale by comparison; I'm sure many of us can relate.)

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

Would it be feasible to laydown AA preflop to a raise and a reraise at fear of AceJoker or JokerJoker.

What if both Jokers hit the board?

This game would could only be played in an asylum

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

I'm friggin' horrible with math, someone help me out: what would be the specific odds of one of the two jokers being in play (in a player's hand or on the board) on a given hand in an 8-handed game? How about the odds of BOTH being in play at the same time?

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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I'm friggin' horrible with math, someone help me out: what would be the specific odds of one of the two jokers being in play (in a player's hand or on the board) on a given hand in an 8-handed game? How about the odds of BOTH being in play at the same time?

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Let's use the computer geek string matching single-character wildcard "?" to represent the joker. Assume we're using a 52-card deck with two jokers added.

Odds of being dealt ?x or ??: 7.338%, or about 13.6:1
Odds of being dealt the omnipotent ?? hand: 1325:1

Odds of one or both of two hands holding ?x or ??: 14.4%, or about 5.9:1
Odds of at least one of three hands holding ?x or ??: 21.17%, or about 3.7:1
Odds of at least one of four hands holding ?x or ??: 27.67%, or about 2.6:1
Odds of at least one of five hands holding ?x or ??: 33.9%, or about 2:1
Odds of at least one of six hands holding ?x or ??: 39.8%, or about 1.5:1
Odds of at least one of seven hands holding ?x or ??: 45.5%, or about 1.2:1
Odds of at least one of eight hands holding ?x or ??: 50.9%, or about 1:1
Odds of at least one of nine hands holding ?x or ??: 56%, or about 1:1.25
Odds of at least one of ten hands holding ?x or ??: 60.8%, or about 1:1.5

Odds of at least one joker hitting the board, when there is not one in your hand, and you have no information about other hands: 18.5%, or about 4.4:1

Odds of the other joker hitting the board when you have one in your hand: 9.6%, or about 9.4:1

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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Would it be feasible to laydown AA preflop to a raise and a reraise at fear of AceJoker or JokerJoker.

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AA becomes the 15th best starting hand in this game. Of course it would be feasible to lay it down. AA in this game is only about as strong as AQs in hold em.

If you had joker-joker in this game, it would be a great trapping hand. Even if your opponent flops the nut straight, so do you, but when you get all-in you have an any-flush + full house freeroll.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

I could see jokers not screwing up the game too much if you were playing an omaha variation in which players were dealt more than 4 cards. Although that game is pretty unconventional anyway. Kind of fun though.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

In one the home games I play in, a guy invented a game he called "turn and burn" where it's exactly Hold 'Em but the turn card and any matching cards anyone holds or on the board are wild.

They play mostly a spread limit game ($0.05-$5.00), but it would surely be more interesting NL-style [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Most of my strategy adjustments are just based on my reads of people because most of the people in the game are pretty easy to read, but I'd certainly welcome any specific ideas anyone has for proper strategy for this game.

-
John

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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Man, can you imagine the power of pocket jokers?

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I AM ALL POWERFUL!!!

Just ask my old lady after I give her the dutch oven treatment.

/end useless post

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

How about moderating the almighty Joker so that it cannot be used to make straights or flushes. This way it becomes extremely powerful (allways flops top pair with no fear of overcards) but vulnerable to certain draws.

Or the value of the Joker is decided by the highest flop card, and its suit is decided by your kicker. This means you have top pair on the flop but are vulnerable to the usual draws. It will also be a pretty crummy hand on many flops, and a monster on others. I think this version should retain a more "Hold 'em Flavour" to it all.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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Or the value of the Joker is decided by the highest flop card, and its suit is decided by your kicker. This means you have top pair on the flop but are vulnerable to the usual draws. It will also be a pretty crummy hand on many flops, and a monster on others. I think this version should retain a more "Hold 'em Flavour" to it all.

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I think this second version is interesting, and could make a playable version of the game. On further reflection:

The Rx hands (where R is the Joker) have some interesting effects on hand values. For example AA is still the best hand (after the rare RR; which flops top set everytime), but AR is better than AKs. All of the R:Broadway hands are monster suited broadways -- they will allways flop TPGK and as such should virtually allways be raised and reraised preflop.

Where things get interesting is the R:Rag hands. They are suited, and they have the ability to flop two-pair and trips slightly more than unpaired hands. However, most of the time you will be flopping top pair with a bad kicker, which will lead to difficult flop decisions. Similarly, if the flop is rags, your hand will be extremely vulnerable to overcards on the turn and river.

Therefore the R:rag hands are something of a double-edged sword. Whilst you are gauranteed top pair on the flop, they can become very tricky to play on the flop.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

It might be interesting if you played with a bug rather than jokers wild. (For the uninformed, the bug can only be used to complete a flush or straight and otherwise counts as an ace). Obviously, then, this would affect only boards with a possible flush or straight, or with an ace.

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

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You should fold any hand preflop that's not a pocket pair or Joker/x. My guess is that sets are still going to be pretty tough to beat, but any other hand is in terrible shape vs Joker/x. Any joker is a reraising hand preflop.

Similarly, you should put in pretty much infinite raises on any flop with a joker (since you have ridiculous odds to improve even if you're behind), and should proceed to call to the river with joker/x if you're playing limit, no matter what the board is.


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If played with two jokers, is this necessarily the case?

Re: NLTHE with the jokers
 

terrible idea. if you really want to try it, do it with limit holdem.