On Table Selection
 

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(In quotes to seperate the introduction from the body.) This guide turned about to be a bit more "basic" than I originally intended (and probably to the disappointment of some). But downtime at Party let me finish earlier than originally promised. So there's a positive and a negative. There are some specifics that I really can't get into (promise to a mentor of mine). But if you have any questions, please ask them and I'll do my best to answer them (and incorporate them into future editions). Also, if there's anything I left out, let me know.

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Many players, after studying their books religiously, posting hands in the forums, and responding to other hands still feel like their win rate is not up to 2+2 standards. Some continue playing at a less than optimal win rate, yet others get frustrated and back out of poker altogether. Frustrated players can usually avoid these tragedies by practicing meticulous table selection.

Picking the table with the highest average pot and an open seat generally will not yield a good table. Rather, looking at the players at the table, instead of the average pot, is best. (Furthermore, the average pot statistic listed is sometimes not accurate as it is calculated by averaging a span of hands, and tables online generally have high turnover rates.) A good table generally includes several loose passive opponents and several loose aggressive opponents. Loose passive players are excellent opponents because they will frequently pay off your big hands by calling all of your bets. Value betting against these opponents moreover provides much of your total table equity. Loose aggressive players act in almost the opposite way as loose passive opponents. However, both player types will add to your total equity in similar ways. Loose aggressive opponents frequently get out of line pre flop, allowing you to isolate and take advantage of their main leak, playing too many hands too aggressively.

Thus, when opening tables, look for players against whom you would like to play. Whether you use a HUD (like PlayerView or GameTime+) or exported PokerTracker notes, determining what kind of opponents are at a specific table is paramount to adding to your win rate. An important concept that is frequently overlooked is the presence of tight aggressive players. If your current table selection method is looking for openings at the highest average pot tables, doesn't it follow that the significant minority of tight aggressive players are doing the same thing? Furthermore, a large pot table is not always a bunch of loose aggressive players slugging it out. There are often tight aggressive players that are 3-betting to isolate and pumping draws. Thus, those high pot tables might have an unprofitable mix of tight aggressive opponents that are isolating the loose aggressive players. Start looking elsewhere for poor opponents; they're out there waiting for you to take their money.

After finding a good table with a couple loose passives, several loose aggressives, and no tight aggressives, your table selection process does not stop, however. Seat selection is probably just as important as table selection. If you have 3 100/100 opponents at the table, but you're not in a position in which you can control the table, you are totally ineffective. A concept that 2+2 books love to drill in to their books is that acting last is good. This cannot be emphasized too much. In general, you want to sit to the left of loose aggressive players so that you can have position on them and raise to isolate. On a similar note, you want to have tighter players on your left. Tighter players are less likely to cold call and less likely to cap the betting. Thus, if you 3-bet to isolate a maniac on your right, you can act last. Acting last and isolating weak and poor players gives you the best situation for being able to control the table, which is the ultimate goal.

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/4296/17au.jpg

Where is the optimal seat?

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4638/25ws.gif

Where is the optimal seat?

Re: On Table Selection
 

This all sounds good but how practical is this? Unless you have some valid numbers on the players you are no better off than using the table stats in the lobby area. I have found that the short-term stats of players can be very decieving. What you think is passive could be a long run of bad cards and conversly what you think is aggressive may very well be a good run of cards. Point being that unless you have at least a couple 100 hands it all interesting at best.

Second: You can spend a lot of time chasing tables and not palying. Players are in and out so frequently the table make up changes all the time.

Third: Often the tables are full so.... how long are you willing to wait to find the magic table? Never mind the seat selection.

I may be the only one that feels this way but..... I think it is just as easy to adapt to palying styles than it is to hunt for a decent tables

Re: On Table Selection
 

Really good post! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I have a question though. Is there anyway to bring up stats on players with out sitting down at the table, besides bringing them up manually?

When I use GT+ with PT, I have to actually sit down at the table and start to play and then load the current session into GT+ to bring up the stats. Is there an easier way to do this?

Thanks!

Re: On Table Selection
 

This is good stuff. On the first table, the optimal (open) seat is to the left of the 30/5/2.1 guy. On the second, it's to the left of the 64/1/0.5 guy.

A couple other things about having loose passives on your right is that no only will you have position on them, but you won't have to defend blinds as often if they are not raising as much pre-flop. As far as having tight players on your left (whether passive or aggressive) is that even if you're not raising pre-flop, you have a chance to effectively have the button more than once per orbit, and blind stealing is easier the tighter they are (of course if they're aggressive, they may make you uncomfortable as they defend their blinds).

Re: On Table Selection
 

+fav

nh.

Re: On Table Selection
 

On GT+, replace your name w/ someones name at the table and everything pops up

Re: On Table Selection
 

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This all sounds good but how practical is this?

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This guide (minus basically one major thing) is the way I have gone from .5/1 to 3/6 short in 8 months, winning a lot of money at each level (granted 2/4 took a bit longer than most).

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Unless you have some valid numbers on the players you are no better off than using the table stats in the lobby area.

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False.

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I have found that the short-term stats of players can be very decieving. What you think is passive could be a long run of bad cards and conversly what you think is aggressive may very well be a good run of cards. Point being that unless you have at least a couple 100 hands it all interesting at best.

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While you may technically be correct about stats not having much meaning until thousands of hands, there is no practical way to have this information (besides PokerEdge). You have what you have and making the most of that information is a key tenet of expert play.

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Second: You can spend a lot of time chasing tables and not palying. Players are in and out so frequently the table make up changes all the time.

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Or you could spend a few extra minutes looking for tables and make more money.

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Third: Often the tables are full so.... how long are you willing to wait to find the magic table? Never mind the seat selection.

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Getting my first table open can take 1 minute or 30 minutes. I'm a patient guy. I'm going to win more money at better tables.

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I may be the only one that feels this way but..... I think it is just as easy to adapt to palying styles than it is to hunt for a decent tables

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You have to adapt to playing styles at every table. Enjoy passing blinds back and forth with 2+2ers.

Re: On Table Selection
 

This is a good article with good information. I think, though, that I'll offer a different method of table selection. I took GrunchCan's advice to just try sitting down at an empty table. I was skeptical (a) that it would get players in a reasonable amount of time, and (b) that those players would suck. It turns out that both (a) and (b) are true, generally. The table fills up with random party donks looking for action, which is much better than getting in line for a table behind a bunch of multitabling TAGs and bonuswhores. You should be somewhat comfortable with SH play, but you're probably still better at HUSH play than the first 3 people who sit down with you. You don't get to have much control over seat selection, however. Fortunately, I don't need it all that much.

Seat selection is one of the reasons why I like Absolute for 6 max play, actually. They have all 9 seats available for sitting, but only allow 6 people to sit. When you're looking at a table with "one" seat free, you get to choose from 4 seats, allowing you to get the weak tightie on your left every single time.

(NC)
 

Dude, I know people like to fix their party background so there's no players or dealers, but don't you think you're taking things a little too far?

Re: On Table Selection
 

Hey shadow,

Good post, but moreso regarding seat selection -- something I've been having trouble with as of late (i.e. I'm constantly isolating/opening in the CO and getting called by the 45/1 button). Definitely something I'm trying to work on. Party doesn't make it easy (not allowing you to change seats). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: (NC)
 

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Dude, I know people like to fix their party background so there's no players or dealers, but don't you think you're taking things a little too far?

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uh I made that in Fireworks?

Re: On Table Selection
 

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not allowing you to change seats

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I really want this option, but I'm afraid I would scare all the lags away.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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Getting my first table open can take 1 minute or 30 minutes. I'm a patient guy. I'm going to win more money at better tables.


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If I spend 30 minutes looking for a table, I have spent a significant fraction of my playing time. However, when I DO take time to select, I see my winrate go up.

People often say they just take a semi-random table and try to learn from wherver and whomever they end up playing. I usually take this approach, since I am more interested (at this level) in improving my game than my bb/100.

After reading about the "sit at an empty table" technique and reading the "baby steps for 6 max" stuff, I no longer bail when a table is breaking up. I made a lot of bets SH and watching the table fill back up.

I just realized I don't have a point.

Re: On Table Selection
 

Ha, I was going to post that!

Write that down
 

I'm writing your handle down so I can search for your posts and read them daily. Great post.

Re: Write that down
 

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I'm writing your handle down so I can search for your posts and read them daily. Great post.

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You might be disappointed, since most of my posts are basically me calling Aaron a nit and revolting under Greg J's dictatorship. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: On Table Selection
 

where is the "baby steps for 6 max" thread?

Re: On Table Selection
 

It's always nice to be wanted.

Grunch: At least I cited my source [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: On Table Selection
 

thanks wook.

"i bent my wookie"

Re: On Table Selection
 

Nice post Shadow, insta-bookmarked

i do have a question on the seat selection quiz. I don't know the seat numbers that well w/o the dealer there(cause i'm stupid), but assuming:
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/1702/seats0se.jpg
(and so on)


in the second example, the best seat clearly is 3, where is the correct seat on the first example? 7? they all look shitty to me (not that I'm leaving that table anytime soon)

Re: On Table Selection
 

First pic was my little trick.

I'm not sitting at that table; I can't control it. The 30/5 guys are a little too loose, but generally have an idea about how to play post-flop. Seat 3 = Seat 4 and they both suck. Anyway, that was just me showing how meticulous I am with table selection (probably bordering on insanity, but that's not the first time I have been accused of being delusional).

Re: On Table Selection
 

Great post. Im planning to move to 2/4 very soon from 1/2 6-max and i feel like this is the thing i will really need to work on when i move up. One question i have is your take on buddy lists. Do you ever use them and do you think they are helpful for table selection? Any opinions are appreciated.

Re: On Table Selection
 

I had never read that post from you before thanks for the link. Anyone else who hasn't read it go back to wookie in this thread and click his link.
Yes he is rather arrogant to link his own thread in someone elses thread but hey it's good stuff.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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Yes he is rather arrogant to link his own thread in someone elses thread but hey it's good stuff.

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Disagree. For one thing, someone asked wookie to post the link. But even if they didn't ask, it would not have been arrogant to post the link so long as it was in-context. Posting a link to an older post of your own helps the forum becasue it helps to prevent thread hijacking, keeps accumulating a conversation in a larger & more-focused thread, and let's the poster make a good well-reasoned point eloquently by just posting a link.

Nuthin wrong with that.

Re: Write that down
 

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most of my posts are basically me calling Aaron a nit and revolting under Greg J's dictatorship. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Four legs good. Two legs bad. Oink. Good article.

Re: On Table Selection
 

This often works well. I'd also suggest looking for short tables (4-6 players) -- not only will they tend to fill with favourable opponents, you often find a good core + enough seating options to put a smile on your face. And you get the added benefit of playing SH against players who think they're playing full ring.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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First pic was my little trick.

I'm not sitting at that table; I can't control it. The 30/5 guys are a little too loose, but generally have an idea about how to play post-flop. Seat 3 = Seat 4 and they both suck. Anyway, that was just me showing how meticulous I am with table selection (probably bordering on insanity, but that's not the first time I have been accused of being delusional).

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I don't think the seats are all that bad. Seats 3 and 4 will allow you to isolate hyper-LAG in seat 1. The 17/9 in seat 2 isn't going to be able to isolate 100% of the time, and you'll be next in line to isolate him. Also, if seat 2 is isolating with weaker hands, you can get some real poker going by capping him with hands slightly stronger than his, because he's not going to want to play between a hyper-LAG and a tightish preflop capper. And once you get HU with hyper-LAG, you can just call down and collect the dead money in the pot.

Seat 7 offers you some chances to play drawing hands because your realitve position to hyper-LAG is great for pot-building.

Are they optimal? Nope. But they look like spots where you can still play fairly profitably.

Re: On Table Selection
 

Hey Shadow,

Firstly, thanks for the info. It's very recently that I've become so selective of my seats when I play. When I sit directly to the left of the players I want to play against, now, I consider them my "personal" fish. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Recently, to help with table/seat selection, I've started datamining (50,000+ hands at 0.5/1, 1/2, and 2/4), as well as purchasing a subscription with PE.

When I started with PE I got REALLY selective, to the extent that I couldn't seem to find a spot to sit.

You'd be amazed how many tables are 25% vpip when you know everyone's stats. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I found two things...

1) It's tough to find an open seat at a table on party with any decent pot size. During the day, it's tough to find an open seat regardless, normally you have to wait.

2) If you're on a waiting list, you don't have seat selection at all. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

3) If you find a good table, often there's only one open seat.

4) My efficiency drastically decreased using this program: I was playing 160 hands per hour instead of 200. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

5) If you're using PV rather than PE, you have to wait for an hand to start before you can see everyone's stats, then you have to wait for PV to update (takes a while dep on DB size)... by this time, the seats are filled. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

What you say is 100% applicable to live play at a casino with multiple tables and the ability to change seats during a session.

How do you actually go about choosing seats on party, currently, though? (I'm really curious about the exact process, software used, etc.).

--Dave.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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I had never read that post from you before thanks for the link. Anyone else who hasn't read it go back to wookie in this thread and click his link.
Yes he is rather arrogant to link his own thread in someone elses thread but hey it's good stuff.

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We're poker players, get used to it! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I guess one of the benefits of online play is that you don't have to deal with poker players. (Unless you post here).

Re: On Table Selection
 

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Yes he is rather arrogant to link his own thread in someone elses thread but hey it's good stuff.

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Disagree. For one thing, someone asked wookie to post the link. But even if they didn't ask, it would not have been arrogant to post the link so long as it was in-context. Posting a link to an older post of your own helps the forum becasue it helps to prevent thread hijacking, keeps accumulating a conversation in a larger & more-focused thread, and let's the poster make a good well-reasoned point eloquently by just posting a link.

Nuthin wrong with that.

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I kid because I love. didn't mean you shouldn't link your own threads.

Re: On Table Selection
 

Great post, I'm noticing that I have become a little bit lazy with table selection. A couple questions, will you pass on a table with a good table VP$IP because you can only get say, the 4th or 5th best seat? Do you have a lot of hands on many different players, what amount of hands on a paticular player would you consider a decent size 30, 50, 100? When a couple of the very loose players leave, do you also leave, or do you give it a few orbits first?

Re: On Table Selection
 

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First pic was my little trick.

I'm not sitting at that table; I can't control it. The 30/5 guys are a little too loose, but generally have an idea about how to play post-flop. Seat 3 = Seat 4 and they both suck. Anyway, that was just me showing how meticulous I am with table selection (probably bordering on insanity, but that's not the first time I have been accused of being delusional).

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I don't think the seats are all that bad. Seats 3 and 4 will allow you to isolate hyper-LAG in seat 1. The 17/9 in seat 2 isn't going to be able to isolate 100% of the time, and you'll be next in line to isolate him. Also, if seat 2 is isolating with weaker hands, you can get some real poker going by capping him with hands slightly stronger than his, because he's not going to want to play between a hyper-LAG and a tightish preflop capper. And once you get HU with hyper-LAG, you can just call down and collect the dead money in the pot.

Seat 7 offers you some chances to play drawing hands because your realitve position to hyper-LAG is great for pot-building.

Are they optimal? Nope. But they look like spots where you can still play fairly profitably.

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Now that I am back in town, I'll catch up on this thread.

Basically the major thrust of the article was emphasizing the aspect of control over the table in selecting where to play optimally. In the first example, you certainly can make money (and especially if the 17/9 is a sucky TAG). However, many players wouldn't be able to exert optimal control from Seat 3.

Seat 7 is dangerous because you might get trapped with a drawing hand. Example: 70 limps 30 limps (note that the 30/5s aren't usually that bad of players), you limp, TAG raises, LAG 3-bets, and TAG folds. Not the best situation for playing my QJs. Like pre-flop charts, there are certainly deviations and times where you would take a non-optimal seat. But, with 70,000 players playing I usually opt to find a better hole.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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Recently, to help with table/seat selection, I've started datamining (50,000+ hands at 0.5/1, 1/2, and 2/4), as well as purchasing a subscription with PE.

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I do both and it's become very much easier.

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It's tough to find an open seat at a table on party with any decent pot size.

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Very true.

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During the day, it's tough to find an open seat regardless, normally you have to wait.

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In my experience, the best times to play are from 5:30 until 2:00 am or 3:00 am EST.

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2) If you're on a waiting list, you don't have seat selection at all. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Wait lists are for RGPers.

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3) If you find a good table, often there's only one open seat.

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I disagree.

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4) My efficiency drastically decreased using this program: I was playing 160 hands per hour instead of 200. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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But I would wager that your winrate has gone up.

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5) If you're using PV rather than PE, you have to wait for an hand to start before you can see everyone's stats, then you have to wait for PV to update (takes a while dep on DB size)... by this time, the seats are filled. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I really don't have that much trouble getting a seat. You must be doing something wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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What you say is 100% applicable to live play at a casino with multiple tables and the ability to change seats during a session.

How do you actually go about choosing seats on party, currently, though? (I'm really curious about the exact process, software used, etc.).

--Dave.

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I choose seats based on stats (like I detailed in the article). Look at everyone's stats, find people I want to isolate, find people away from whom I should stay. If there's not an optimal seat, or if there's a TAG (playing SH) then I move on.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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A couple questions, will you pass on a table with a good table VP$IP because you can only get say, the 4th or 5th best seat?

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Yes. There are too many bad players and too many tables to worry about having to have a poor seat.


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Do you have a lot of hands on many different players, what amount of hands on a paticular player would you consider a decent size 30, 50, 100?

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I've got a lot of hands on a lot of players (like 250k players) and I also use PE. (Please save this fight for the zoo.)

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When a couple of the very loose players leave, do you also leave, or do you give it a few orbits first?

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Depends on who is left.

Re: On Table Selection
 

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purchasing a subscription with PE.[ QUOTE ]




I do both and it's become very much easier.

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Is this on Party? I thought PE was no longer permitted?

Re: On Table Selection
 

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purchasing a subscription with PE.[ QUOTE ]




I do both and it's become very much easier.

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Is this on Party? I thought PE was no longer permitted?

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Eurobet. They haven't given me any grief about it. And if they do, I'll stop using it, give them a call and keep going. If they actually ban me and won't reinstate me, I think there's a couple other skins with which I can get rakeback.