questions for bossjj
 

Hey boss,
I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I really enjoy studying different theologies, I've had a hard time finding a knowledgeable person of your faith to talk to, so I was wondering if you would answer a few questions for me. i'm not trying to start a debate, or argument, just curious.

if you don't mind,

first off,

what are the implications of going some 1935 years with no temple, and no sacrifices?

if the temple could be rebuilt, would it? under what conditions?

Re: questions for bossjj
 

Why not just repost this in the new "Why Jews Reject Jesus" thread.

Re: questions for bossjj
 

I didn't want to hijack that thread, I hope he will answer.

Re: questions for bossjj
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey boss,
I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I really enjoy studying different theologies, I've had a hard time finding a knowledgeable person of your faith to talk to, so I was wondering if you would answer a few questions for me. i'm not trying to start a debate, or argument, just curious.

if you don't mind,

first off,

what are the implications of going some 1935 years with no temple, and no sacrifices?

if the temple could be rebuilt, would it? under what conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jews are meant to complete as many mitzvahs as they are capabale of completing. They cannot make sacrifices without the temple. With regard to the temple being rebuilt, here is something i posted in another thread when bluffthis asked this same question,

"taken from a website that i believe accurately answers your question:

"Standing today in what Jews believe is the historical location of the first two temples, is the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim shrine. The Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest site in Islam, is located just to its south. To recognize the Dome of the Rock as the only possible rebuilt Temple, or to seriously attempt to tear it down to replace it, both constitute seemingly unresolvable religious and political problems. Nonetheless, the idea of rebuilding some Temple somewhere is difficult to abandon entirely:

For the last 1900 years, Jews have prayed that God would allow for the rebuilding of the Temple. This prayer is a formal part of the thrice daily Jewish prayer services.

However, not all rabbis agree on what would happen in a rebuilt Temple. It has traditionally been assumed that some sort of animal sacrifices would be reinstituted, in accord with the rules in Leviticus and the Talmud. However there is another opinion, beginning with Maimonides, that God deliberately has moved Jews away from sacrifices towards prayer, as prayer is a higher form of worship. Thus, some rabbis hold that sacrifices would not take place in a rebuilt Temple. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first chief rabbi of the Jewish community in pre-state Israel, holds that sacrifices will not be reinstituted.

A few, very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. Furthermore, there are many ritual impurity constrictions that are difficult to resolve, making the building's construction a practical impossibility.

Additionally, many Jews are against rebuilding the Temple due to the enormously hostile reaction from all Arab and Muslim nations that would likely result— even were the building to be complementary to those holy to Islam, there would be high suspicion that such a building project would ultimately end with the destruction of these and the rebuilding of the Temple on its original spot.

Some fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups, especially those who follow a dispensationalist theology, believe that the Jewish people will build the Third Temple shortly before, or perhaps after, "true" Christians have been raptured." "

Re: questions for bossjj
 

great info, thanks.

Re: questions for bossjj
 

This was discussed somewhat in this thread.

I've also addressed the issue in the first Why do Jews Reject Jesus? thread.

Briefly, when the Temple was standing, it was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. According to the Hebrew bible, prayer, repentence and charity also atone for sin. There are several examples and in the bible of people who had their sins atoned for without bringing a blood sacrifice. I discussed all this in a lot of detail and quoted many bible verses in the first "Why do Jews Reject Jesus?" thread.

It is forbidden to bring sacrifices anywhere except the Temple, so that is why we don't bring them nowadays. The bible says that the Temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes.

Atonement
 

OK, if we're going to have a separate thread going, let's make this the atonement thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Briefly, when the Temple was standing, it was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. According to the Hebrew bible, prayer, repentence and charity also atone for sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I note that you use the adjective "unintentional". Why?

Re: Atonement
 

He didn't repost there, so I figured I would just answer in this thread.

I answered your question in the other thread, which is where I first saw it. You are repeating a lot of questions which I already answered in the older threads.

Re: Atonement
 

thanks for the answer boss,
I just found this area, so let me read through those threads, and get up to speed, I might have more questions later.

Re: Atonement
 

I agree we should make this thread the "atonement thread." But you are just repeating questions I've already answered.

There are many verses were God says repentance (or something else) atones for sin. I know you think that we've been interpreting the verses wrong, but how do you explain all the actual examples of people who received atonement without bringing a blood sacrifice?

I will repost some relevant posts in this thread.

Re: Atonement
 

Repeat post:

The Greek Testament (i.e. - the Christian's "new testment") contradicts the Hebrew bible in so many places. So if the Hebrew bible is from God, then the Greek Testament can't be. It doesn't make sense that the Christians claim that both are true. There are just so many contradictions. Here are just a few examples of contradictions, of some things from the Hebrew bible that the Greek testament denies:

1.) In order to receive atonement for our sins, it is not necessary to believe in the messiah or to bring a blood sacrifice. Sincere repentance is all that is required, and we aren't required to be perfect. (Dt 4:26-31, 1 Kings 8:46-50, Isaiah 55:6-9, Jer 7:3-23, 29:13, 33:19, 36:3, Ezek 18:1-23, 33:11, Hosea 6:6, 14:2-3, Micah 6:6, Ps 23: 5-6, 40:6-8, 51:14-19, Lev 5:11-13, Num 17:11, 31:50, Ex 30:15, Jonah 3:5-10, 2 Sam 12:13.) All these verses are either God saying something like, "repent, and I will forgive you" or they are actual examples of cases were people were forgiven without bringing a blood sacrifice.
www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath

2.) We (both Jews and gentiles) all have direct access to God, and no mediator is neccesary. There is no eternal damnation, and “G-d is near to all those who call upon him,” and He “preserves all those who love Him” (Ps 145). We have no need for Jesus.

3.) We Jews will always be G-d’s chosen people. His covenant with us is forever (2 Sam 7.24, Is 45:17, 54:10, Gen 17:7, Is 49:14-15, Num 15:14, Ps 105:8-10, Ps 89:31-35, Jer 30:11, Dt 8:5). Some Christians believe in "replacement theology" and falsely believe that they have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people.

4.) There is no original sin. The Torah is not too hard to keep (Dt 30:10-14), and we can master over sin (Gen 4:6-7).

5.) In the messianic age, the gentiles will admit that they were wrong and come to the Jews for the truth. Everyone will recognize that the G-d of Israel is the one true G-d. (Zech 8:23, Is 2:3, Ezek 37:28, Jer 16:20, Zech 13:1-6, Micah 7:15-16, Ezek 44:9, Zach 14:16). Christians falsely believe that everyone will come to Jesus.

Re: Atonement
 

Repeat post:

King David, and the people of Ninevah, are two more examples of those whose sins were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. This link also discusses this:
www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html

Here's just a few examples from the article:
"Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 17:11,13 and Numbers 31:50 are examples in the Torah where atonement is procured without the shedding of blood. In Leviticus 5:11-13 the poor man may give a flour offering instead of an animal sacrifice for an atonement. Numbers 17:11-12 describes how Aaron made an atonement for the people with incense, and in Numbers 31:50 the Torah declares that the golden ornaments donated by high officers of the military who successfully defeated the Midianites were offered as an atonement as well."

Here are a few more verses:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said,‘Has the LORD as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifice as in obedience to the voice of the LORD? Surely, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.

Proverbs 16:6 By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one avoids evil.

Psalms 51:16-17 For you desire not sacrifice else I would give it. The sacrifice of God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Isaiah 1:11-18 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats...Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says the Lord, `Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey..."

Psalms 69:30-31 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This pleases the LORD better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs.

When the Temple was standing, a blood sacrifice was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. A poor man could give a grain offering instead, and this and tons of other bible verses demonstrate that a blood sacrifice was not required. As the bible says, the blood sacrifice was only for unintentional sins, not all sins. Also, as discussed in this link below (which I already posted), only certain types of animals could be sacrificed, and human sacrifice was forbidden.
www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html

There is no vicarious atonement in the bible. That is, each person had to repent for his own sins. The sacrifice of one person didn't atone for anybody else's sins. So jesus' alleged sacrifice was not an acceptable sacrifice in any way.

When the ancient Israelites sinned, the message of the prophets was always, "repent, return to God..." as that is was He desires when we sin. Their message was NOT "you need to bring a sacrifice in order to be forgiven."

Long before the Temple was destroyed, the prophets predicted that it would be destroyed and that the Jews would be without it for a long time, until it is rebuilt when the real messiah comes. They said that without the Temple, prayer and repentence would atone for sin:

Hosea 14:2-3 "Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.”

As the article discusses, the prophets (after predicting that the Temple will be destroyed) never say that the messiah will replace the sacrifices or that believing in some dead man will atone for sin. Those christian beliefs are from paganism, not the bible. Do a searh on "Mythra". Christianity is essentially the cult of Mythra with a new name.

Re: Atonement
 

Repeat post:

This article (below), while about a different topic, does also discuss how the prophets said that prayer and repentance, not a messiah, would replace the sacrificial system. Here's the relevant paragraphs:

[ QUOTE ]

Yet, by what means can the Jewish people return to God? A few chapters later, Jeremiah answers this question as he outlines for his disobedient nation how they are to end their persistent backsliding. In his seventh chapter, the prophet warns his people not to place their hopes on blood sacrifices or look to The Temple of the Lord to save them. Jeremiah proclaims that these institutions cannot deliver them from their brazen sins. Rather, they must turn away from idolatry and return to God by keeping the commandments. Please take a moment and study Jeremiah’s remarkable message on atonement.



"So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, “Improve your ways and your deeds, I then will allow you to dwell in this place. Do not rely on false words, saying, ‘The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord are they.’ If you improve your ways and your deeds, if you perform judgment between one man and his fellow man, you do not oppress the stranger, an orphan, or a widow, and you do not shed innocent blood in this place, and you do not follow other gods for your detriment. I will then allow you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave your forefathers from days of yore to eternity . . . . So says the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings upon your sacrifices and eat flesh; for neither did I speak with your forefathers nor did I command them on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning a burnt offering or a sacrifice. This thing did I command them saying, ‘Listen to Me so that I am your God and you are My people, you walk in all the ways that I command you . . . .’ ” (Jeremiah 7:3-7, 21-23)



The above chapter stands as a reverberating indictment against the church’s most fundamental creeds. For example, according to Christian doctrine, man cannot merit salvation through his own repentance. Atonement comes only through the shedding of innocent blood. Throughout the seventh chapter of Jeremiah, however, the prophet proclaims the very opposite message on atonement. Over and over again, Jeremiah loudly declares that God does not want blood sacrifices but rather repentance alone for man’s grievous sins.



Finally, as we study the words of Jeremiah, attention also must be paid to what the prophet does not say. Because Jeremiah’s silence on missionary teachings is deafening, this chapter presents a serious theological problem for evangelical Christians. Why isn’t there one word throughout the prophet’s admonishment about believing in Jesus for salvation? Bear in mind that the purpose of this prophecy is to guide Jewish people who have lost their way into a sanctified relationship with the Almighty. Why didn’t Jeremiah, as he points his wayward nation in the direction of Godliness, direct the Jewish people to Jesus’ atoning death on the cross? Why did Jeremiah instead prophesy that the day will come when the Jewish people will be restored to their land as a result of their heartfelt repentance? (Jeremiah 3:14-18) According to Christian doctrine, repentance alone cannot save man from damnation. He can weep and wax forth with humble words of remorse from dawn until dusk, but without the blood of the cross, missionaries argue, there can be no forgiveness of sin. Why didn’t the prophet ever mention this foundational creed in his sermon on forgiveness or declare that the Jewish people will eventually be restored because they believed in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?



Moreover, why would Jeremiah prophesy that in this act of penitence, you will one day “call Me ‘My Father,’ and not turn away from Me”? (3:4) Why is there no mention in Jeremiah’s prophecy of the Jewish people calling out to the Son or the Holy Spirit in repentance? In short, why is there not a word mentioned throughout Jeremiah’s prophetic sermon on atonement regarding the foundational claims of Christendom? It is not only what the prophet does say, but also what he doesn’t say that draws our attention.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.outreachjudaism.org/jeremiah31.html

Re: Atonement
 

Another issue you haven't addressed: If a blood sacrifice was/is required, then that would mean that Christians have no means of atonement either, because jesus' alleged death wasn't a proper sacrifice. - He wasn't the right type of animal; He wasn't sacrificed in the Temple and the blood wasn't sprinkled on the altar; He wasn't unblemished. Also, each person had to bring their own sacrifice, and the sacrifices only atoned for unintentional sins.

Claiming that the gt says that Jesus is a different type of sacrifice that atone for everybody's sins forever just doesn't cut it. Such an explanation completing contradicts what the Hebrew bible says regarding what makes a proper sacrifice, and it ignores the fact that the bible says that the prayer of repentance would replace the sacrificial system, not believing in the death and resurrection of some virgin-born godman/failed messiah. Those beliefs are from paganism, not the bible.

You (Christians in general) claim (wrongly) that it's the bible that says a blood sacrifice was required, but you ignore everything it says about what makes a proper sacrifice. Not just any alleged sacrifice atoned for sin.

Also, where was the sacrifice? The real sacrifices were animals that stayed dead, but Jesus didn't sacrifice his life. As I heard somewhere, "Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins." There is no such system of atonement in the Hebrew bible.