WSoP ME Hand
 

This hand occured half way through Level 2 with blinds at 50 - 100.

A VERY loose aggro girl who was been playing 40-50% of the pots is the villan in this hand. Her standard play was to call (a limp or a raise) preflop, call a flop bet and then raise the turn. Every time she had position on her opponent and did this play, her opponent folded.

She has only shown a hand down twice. Both times she was out of of position. Once she bet the turn and river after it was checked through on the flop and she showed K high. The other time the same thing and she showed top set.

She had built up her stack to 16,000 or so by getting a lot of the tighties at my table to lay down their hands. I think my image is pretty tight as I have played only a few pots, but I have not showed down a hand yet.

I have about 10,000 to start this hand.

She calls the big blind of 100 in first position. Folded to me and I raise with AK suited to 500. Folded back to her and she calls. I know she has two cards now. Pot is 1,150.

The flop is A86 rainbow. She checks and I bet 900. She calls after saying "900?". (She is also from Denmark) Pot is now 2,950.

Turn is a K completing rainbow. She checks again and I bet 1,500. She fiddles with her chips for a little while and raises 2,500 more. I have about 7,100 left and the pot is now 8,450.

What is your play from here on out?

-Phil

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

Mull over it and toss your chips in dejectedly so she'll push in on the river [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

I think a push is fine here. There aren't many draws on the board, and if you call you will half your stack committed. If she knows anything, she will know something is fishy. POOSH!

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

call, and call the river bet that's coming.

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

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call, and call the river bet that's coming.

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Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

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call, and call the river bet that's coming.

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Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

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call, and call the river bet that's coming.

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I agree. I think a push sucks. She's not folding a set, but may, may fold a weaker 2-pair if you push.

If she pushes the river, I'd hate it, but probably call.

I actually kind of like checking through the turn as well. I guess that's on my mind as I've been reading HOH vol. 2, but this certainly looks like a situation where there aren't any apparent draws, and checking through is going to very, very likely result in a river bet from her, regardless of what falls. Might have been another way to play it.

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

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I actually kind of like checking through the turn as well. I guess that's on my mind as I've been reading HOH vol. 2, but this certainly looks like a situation where there aren't any apparent draws, and checking through is going to very, very likely result in a river bet from her, regardless of what falls. Might have been another way to play it.

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Against anyone else at the table that is how I would have played it, but against her, I thought getting more money in the pot was the best line.

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

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call, and call the river bet that's coming.

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i like how lloyd phrased it

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

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I actually kind of like checking through the turn as well. I guess that's on my mind as I've been reading HOH vol. 2, but this certainly looks like a situation where there aren't any apparent draws, and checking through is going to very, very likely result in a river bet from her, regardless of what falls. Might have been another way to play it.

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Against anyone else at the table that is how I would have played it, but against her, I thought getting more money in the pot was the best line.

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Fair enough, if she'll call you with a weak ace, then I agree.

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

Go into tank and reluctantly call trying to induce a bluff on the river making it seem you'd fold if pushed against w/more pressure

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

I agree w/ the call/call river line.

For what its worth, she made the perfect raise to commit you to your stack if you're on a fairly weak hand - kudos to her.

Too bad she ran into a hand - unless she flopped a set, which is why her all-out aggression early would/will pay-off big time here.

Re: WSoP ME Hand
 

Wow,
Villain's raise sends shivers down my spine. Hero is getting > 3:1 to call the turn raise. Villain can easily put hero on AK because of the PF raise, and the strong lead on the flop and the weak lead on the turn. Hero probably doesnt bet so strong on the flop with AA or KK. Villain doesn't need to make a probe bet as she should have a good idea about hero's hand, and shouldn't expect to be able to move him off of top 2 pr, in such a non-threatening board.

I doubt she's putting a move on because the turn raise is too easy to call. I think she has the set but might have ak. If villain had a8 or a6 she wouldn't need to pop so much on the turn to find out where she was at, and might even c/r the flop.

With 71XBB in the ME and having played very tight predictable poker, I would do the first unpredictable thing and fold.

Results and Thoughts
 

Well consensus seems to be call turn check raise and call any river bet. That is the line I chose, but I am still not convinved it is correct.

Folding was not really an option for me against this opponent. So my two choices were call/call or push on the turn.

Here are my thoughts on the hand. I think preflop and flop are standard. As I mentioned in another post, against a lot of players I would check behind on the turn and call/bet river. Most solid players are folding a weak A to a turn bet or are trapping me with 88 or 66. But against this opponent I like putting some money in the pot. I like my 1,500 turn bet, because it looks a little weak and gives her an opportunity to make a play at me. Once she check raises 2,500 more the pot is 8,450 and I have 7,100 left. IF I call I will have 4,600 left and the pot will be 10,950. I felt like I had enough chips left that I wasn't "pot comitted" in her eyes and she could still bluff me off the pot on the river. I am only taking a large risk if she has an open ended straight draw which is a possibilty with this opponent. I eventually decided that the probabilty that she was drawing very thin or even dead was significant and that I had enough chips after my turn call to be bluffed on the river made calling the turn and any river bet the best decision. If I have less chips I have an easy push on the turn.

Also, I was not sure if she was capable of folding a hand like AQ or AJ if I pushed the turn but I think I definitely get her stack be calling the turn and river.

The river was a 7. She bet 2,000 on the river (which I really wasn't expecting - I thought she would either check or put me all-in on the river) and I called. She of course turns over 77 and I almost throw up.

Most people I talked with thought calling the turn and river given the opponent read was the best line, but a couple thought after my turn call, she might shut down on the river given that board and even if she is only drawing to 2 outs, she is basically free rolling on her turn bluff check raise so the best option was to push the turn. I am still not convinced either way.


As a follow-up hand, the VERY next hand after losing this pot, a tighties raises utg to 300. I pick up KK and make a "steam" raise to 1,000. The button calls and utg folds. The flop is QT6 and I push my last 1,600. The button calls with TT and I am out with no help on turn or river. (It was a fun 3 hours for me in the WSoP). Nevermind the results, does anyone think I should check this flop with the intention of calling? I didn't want to give AK a free draw to 7 outs so that is why I decided to push the flop. Plus, it obviously looks like I am steaming from the prior hand so he might call with a lot of hands I am crushing on this flop?

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

No one has any thoughts on "freeroll" bluffing situations? Basically where your opponent tries to win the pot there and if they don't will shut down and only continue if they hit their card on the river. I thought this was an interesting topic that would generate some discussion.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

It is interesting. The problem is I don't think its applicable to this opponent because she will almost always fire again on the river it seems. Also, keep in mind that calling might also let her improve to a second best hand if she has a hand like middle pair on the flop which turned into 3rd pair. She might shutdown if she doesnt improve, but she will pay off if you let her catch-up a little.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

I'm still stunned by the hand.

I think it shows incredibly poor judgement on villain's part to proceed with bluffing deep into her stack when it was apparant that hero was not going to fold.

Her value bet on the river showed that she totally misread the situation, as she should have moved in with anything.

I gave her too much credit, I expected her to have fairly acute skills to make a play like this.

She paid for each of her cards, I don't understand the "freeroll" question.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

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She paid for each of her cards, I don't understand the "freeroll" question.

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Basically, that once I call her turn check raise she is done with her hand unless she hits her 7 because it is obvious that I am now calling any river bet. So even though she only has a 2 outer, I am letting her freeroll by not pushing on the turn. Again, I am not sure if that situation applies here, as I do think I had enough chips leftover for her to continue bluffing on the river, but I wanted to see if others agree.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

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I doubt she's putting a move on because the turn raise is too easy to call. I think she has the set but might have ak. If villain had a8 or a6 she wouldn't need to pop so much on the turn to find out where she was at, and might even c/r the flop.

With 71XBB in the ME and having played very tight predictable poker, I would do the first unpredictable thing and fold.

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and then

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I think it shows incredibly poor judgement on villain's part to proceed with bluffing deep into her stack when it was apparant that hero was not going to fold.


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In one post you say that you would fold based on villain's actions. In another you say that she's bluffing when it was apparent that hero was not going to fold. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Either the small bet was a good bluff because it meant that she did have a big hand or it really was too small and you really would call it.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

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Basically, that once I call her turn check raise she is done with her hand unless she hits her 7 because it is obvious that I am now calling any river bet. So even though she only has a 2 outer, I am letting her freeroll by not pushing on the turn. Again, I am not sure if that situation applies here, as I do think I had enough chips leftover for her to continue bluffing on the river, but I wanted to see if others agree.

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But I think this player probably plays 88 the same way, making calling the turn safer and you don't lose your stack the times you are behind. It's worth letting her freeroll a 2 outer.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

I think in this case its more likely for her to have the goods than 77, and she may value bet on the river with the best hand and save you 1/2 your remaining chips (still a workable stack).

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

It's both. We can see from the answers on this thread that 9/10 players are not folding here. She should expect that. And that's why I would have folded, because its too unlikely for a player with AK to fold, and hence she should have the goods. Maybe my response would have been different if I had been watching her play. But to me it looked like a flopped set.


If a player is going to employ a strategy of playing weak in the beginning of the hand and amping up the agression on the turn and the river, then they need to have strong reading skills to survive. Villain should have known that hero would call there, and should have avoided the situation without the goods... IMO.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

I don't see how a push isn't the right play. She's shown the set once to set that up in your mind and that's precisely what she wants you to believe she has here. I'm not going away on the river no matter what she bets so I'd put it back on her. The pot is big enough now to justify shutting her out of the river. You might get called by a hand like A8 or 86...but I don't care. I'll happily scope up that pot already in there.