Did I cheat?
 

So what do you do when playing in a casino and you see your opponents hole cards? Personally, I think is is your own responsibility to keep your cards concealed, but that people should not be actively trying to sneak a peak. Anyone else have thoughts on the matter, especially cause I see a lot of players pick up their cards way to high or otherwise make little attempt to conceal them.

The specific situation that leads me to ask...
Playing 1-2 NL at the Taj in AC. Unbelievably large stack to my left (maybe $2500) is playing LAG and a bit of a table coach. He raises UTG (could literally be any two), I call with QJ offsuit strictly for implied odds, everyone else folds. Flop comes Queen high, two clubs. I look over to see what my opponent will do and he looks at his cards, and I get a look too! He flopped an open end straight draw, which he eventually missed. I smooth call a flop bet, make a small turn bet after his check which he calls, and then raise him off a bluff on the river when he tries to represent the flush. So I had the best hand the whole time and the guy was kind of a jerk, but I basically get an easy $200 because I knew he had jack high. To top it off, I show my cards after he announced he thought I had the flush, and if anyone had stopped to think they would have realized my river raise was totally absurd. Thoughts?

Re: Did I cheat?
 

why bother raising if you know he has nothing. As long as you aren't actively trying to see his cards, then I don't think you did anything wrong...it's his own fault. If you could see his cards earlier in the night you should have told him that you could....after a warning it's all fair. If this was the first time, and you both happen to be in the hand, I don't think you can really do anything differently.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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So what do you do when playing in a casino and you see your opponents hole cards? Personally, I think is is your own responsibility to keep your cards concealed, but that people should not be actively trying to sneak a peak.

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I think the mantra here is 'tell them once', and then if they keep doing it, by all means use the knowledge to your advantage.

It is the players responsibility to protect their own hand.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

I had a very similar situation playing in a live game at a casino near hear. My thought was that it is your responsibility to protect your cards if u dont tough luck. NOT cheating IMO.

btw... i saw a hand that he open-pushed preflop UTG and it was 22 it folded to my BB and there it is i have 55 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] i didnt consider it cheating. oh well

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Kasey [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Did I cheat?
 

They say poker is a game of partial information. The more information you can get, the better you will do.

What you did wasn't cheating, it was taking advantage of someone, which is the name of the game.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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why bother raising if you know he has nothing.

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I raised on the end for two reasons.

1. I always raise there when I KNOW Ihave the best hand, though admittedly this may have been one time not to.

2. I still had a good amount behind and my opponent was aggressive, so I figured I would give him a chance to reraise. Not very likely, but nothing to lose.

As for giving one warning, I always used to turn my head and do just that. Until, one time in a tourney at Borgata I had the chance to see a guys cards, did not look and warned him, and then paid him on the turn after he made his hand (I was ahead on the flop). After that, just gotta look out for #1.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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....after a warning it's all fair. If this was the first time, and you both happen to be in the hand, I don't think you can really do anything differently.

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I used to warn people that I could see their hole cards, until one jerk turned to me after the warning and said "What are you doing trying to look at my cards, a$$hole". He looked like he was ready to punch me out then and there. I'd seen his cards totally be accident, too...he was really sloppy about looking at them. Rather than realizing that I was being honest, he acted like I'd just admitted to cheating.

After that incident, I've stopped warning people. I don't actively try to see my opponents' hole cards, but when I do, I no longer warn them. If they can't protect their hole cards, screw'em.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

No. You will have many other opportunities to look at peoples cards. Don't let them pass. When somebody is particularly reckless with their cards, you need to make an effort to not look at your cards until he looks at his, so you get the best opportunity to see. But I'm a dick...

-Jihad

Re: Did I cheat?
 

Anyone who auto-cheats here is an A-hole. I will tell anyone ONCE they are exposing their hand as long as they are reasonably pleasant to be around. I will tell extremely new players, or nice old ladies more than once, and explain how to protect their hand. I do this very QUIETLY so as not to embarrass them.

If they're a jerk, screw 'em. I put on my glasses so they don't notice that I'm seeing their cards.

al

Re: Did I cheat?
 

The funny part is even with all that information, you still misplayed the hand.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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The funny part is even with all that information, you still misplayed the hand.

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I'm no NL pro, but that's exactly what I was thinking as well. He's got an OESD and you smooth-call his flop bet? The small bet on the turn I can see, if you were trying to tempt him into checkraising all-in as a semibluff.

But hey, I suck at NL.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

here is my completely illogical rule:

- if somebody is old, female, or nice, i'll tell 'em at least once and make a very determined effort not to look
- if somebody is close enough to me - has some experience, not old, male, i'll tell 'em once and then if i see cards, so be it
- if somebody's being a dick, i'm not saying anything and i'll take a little peak now and then, esp. if i have my sunglasses on and i don't think i'll get caught.

this guy sounds like a dick. also, i would raise the river if i were positive what he had to give him the chance to re-bluff so i could make an "amazing" call with one pair.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

I too have seen similar situations. Here is my two cents:

Yes, it is the responsibility of each player to properly conceal his/her cards. However, often a player will think the cards are concealed when in fact they are not. This gives certain players an added advantage. Moreover, as time passes most people (myself included) will be more and more inclined to go for the peak when possible. This puts you in an unethical spot. I believe the honorable thing to do, therefore, is to alert the player that their cards are visable. You should not do this in the middle of a hand of course since you will be giving information out during a hand and the information is already known to you as it is. Clearly, you will not continue with your KK if you happen to notice that the raiser on your left has AA. So, I wait till the hand is done and let them know. Poker should be played honorably and you should win based on skill, not because you can see your oponent's cards.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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Poker should be played honorably and you should win based on skill, not because you can see your oponent's cards.

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Doesn't exposing hole cards demonstrate a lack of the skill that you feel is important to win honorably? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
The poker table is the Survival of the Fittest. I, too, point out to the pretty lady, grandma and newbie next to me that they are exposing their cards, but if someone can't follow good advice, it might as well be me raking in their chips rather the guy sitting on their left. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Did I cheat?
 

I love this post. You didn't cheat. But you do suck at poker. Raise the flop, bet the turn enough to price out his straight draw. And if you want to be cute, call the river. Smarter play, though, is to raise and then DON'T show your hand. What the hell were you thinking showing your irrational play?

Re: Did I cheat?
 

i agree with the " one warning rule", but I wouldn't be mad if someone was able to see my cards and didn't tell me. there is money at stake, people do worse things than look at someones whole cards for money.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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I love this post. You didn't cheat. But you do suck at poker. Raise the flop, bet the turn enough to price out his straight draw. And if you want to be cute, call the river. Smarter play, though, is to raise and then DON'T show your hand. What the hell were you thinking showing your irrational play?

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Wow, I find all this criticism of my play very entertaining. I don't think I played the hand perfectly, probably the result of playing at 6AM and not often being in a situation where I know my opponents hand, and then acting too quickly. Not that I had been asking about strategy, or I would have provided more specific detail, but here is my rationale anyway...

preflop
villain utg+1 raises to 15 (crazy lag with the table covered)
hero utg+2 calls 15 with QJ offsuit (~500 in stack)

I had been playing very tight and only called here because of huge implied odds

Flop Q 10 x, two clubs
This is where I see villains J-9
he bets 40
I call

Turn blank
villain checks, hero bets 50, villain calls

At this point I have absolutely no interest in pushing him off his hand because there is clearly no chance I will pay him off, but a large chance I can get him to pay me off, most likely by pairing one of his cards, or by bluffing a scare card...

River A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] completing the flush draw
Villain insta-bets 100, representing a flush I know he does not have
I min raise to 200, specifically to leave half my stack behind so he might make a move.
Unfortunately he turbo-mucked.

I showed my cards cause he was a jerk and was convinced I had the flush, but also cause I knew I was getting up from the table in two hands anyway to leave the city. So I was not too worried about table image at that point.

Anyway, please tell me a line that makes me more money. I think I could have raised the flop or bet more on the turn, but the whole point was to seem passive so he would get aggressive when I knew I had him beat. Ok, flame away.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

In a casino, I make the decision of whether to tell them or not based on the personality. Age and gender have no factor in my book. If somebody's clearly new, I'll warn them multiple times, but anybody else gets one warning max.

Anyone who has been warned (or is a jerk and doesn't deserve a warning), I'll peek at whenever they give me the opportunity. Hell, I'd peek at my own mother's cards (after warning her a few times) at the poker table.

In a home game, I make every effort not to look and warn every time. The difference is that in a home game, it's a much friendlier environment, and we have some players who are still learning. In a casino, it's about the money.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

bump for constructive crticism

Re: Did I cheat?
 

I will tell anybody one time. If it is a woman in her early 20s that is nice looking I'll tell her each time and make sure I don't look. And compliment her when she rakes a pot. Unless of course she is one of those that sits down and acts like she doesn't know what she is doing so she can hit and run.

If I see the cards I use the information and I am almost always ruthless about it. If they want to call me with the worst hand that is their problem, not mine. Granted I do not try to see their cards and I've only had it give me an unfair advantage twice in the past 6 months, so it makes no difference in the long run.

Last week I raised with QJs and the guy next to me looks at his cards and had K3o and the dealer saw him exposing them for about the 100th time. Somebody else asked what the cards were after they were in the muck. I waited until after the round of betting was complete to tell them, and I was backwards on my suits but that is expected, I just saw offsuit k3 both black. I think it is only right to give them that information, but I waited until the round was over because I did not think it was fair to me if I bet not knowing it, the guy next to me is a jackass, and his cards become exposed. The good thing is the dealer told the guy that if it happened again he was going to be dealt out.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

At my local B&M there is a an old lady who is much awaited in the 6/12 games. Very bad player, will call you down with any pair.

She sat on my left and after a while I realized I could see her cards. Normally I would have said something, but for some inexplicable reason I didn't. Instead I started to check her cards every chance I could get. I don't bring sunglasses to the table.

Finally a good player on my right called out, "Elaine" (not her real name) "protect your cards, you've played long enough to know that". She shot back some smart ass comment, and I turned beet red.

Afterwards the guy said to me, sorry man, but it wasn't fair for me to get free information the rest of the table wasn't privy to. The morale of my story is, he was right, and I ended up looking like an ass. I haven't seen the guy since, but when I do, I'm going to probably turn red all over again from embarrasment.

I didn't need to see her cards to win at that game and I'd be pissed if other players were seeing her cards and I wasn't. I don't want a reputation as an angle shooter. People who say they'd always use this information are getting too close to that line. I'll always give someone a warning first, unless they are complete a-holes.

P.S. raise the flop, and bet bigger on the turn, and read TOP. You are charging him for his draw, and I can't see him laying it down, even if you laid your cards face up on the table. With a bigger pot you might have gotten an all-in on the river out of him.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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bump for constructive crticism

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I wouldve reraised the flop and potted the turn. But if there was a decent chance he would bluff off all his chips and double you up, your line wasnt bad. On the end, your stack wasnt really big enough for him to play back at your min raise, but I like the idea.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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P.S. raise the flop, and bet bigger on the turn, and read TOP. You are charging him for his draw, and I can't see him laying it down, even if you laid your cards face up on the table. With a bigger pot you might have gotten an all-in on the river out of him.

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given that the op knows villain's cards, this is the easiest hand to play in the world

calling on the flop? wow....

Re: Did I cheat?
 

poker has been described many times as a war. maybe i am way off here, but i don't think you have to warn anybody to cover their cards. i would go directly after a guy who keeps flashing me his cards, the same way i would use a tell if i picked it up, i am going to use this and whatever other small advantages i can against you. this game is about small edges and the more i get, the better. having an ace up your sleeve is cheating, taking an advantage where an advantage is given (IMO) is not.

No you did\'nt cheat, but...
 

Why show your cards after driving him off his bluff? Unless you are trying to get everyone at the table to think you are a donkey and/ or put the table coach on tilt, then you should have taken the money and gone on to the next hand.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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poker has been described many times as a war.

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Business has also many times been described as a war, in both cases the analogy is greatly flawed. In war, you don't seek to have customers return every day and put more cash in your pocket.

In poker, your opponents have the fair expectation of a level playing field. If you abuse this expectation liberally, sooner or later you will find yourself hosting a war that no-one wants to attend.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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In poker, your opponents have the fair expectation of a level playing field.

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Are you implying if I notice an obvious tell that I should announce it to the table so their a level playing field? In poker, the playing field is never level. Some players are just better than others. Soem can spot tells and exploit them mercilessly. Of course, the rules need to be enforced, but stupidity does not break any rule of which I am aware. The only thing every player has in common is that each recognizes they are GAMBLING and might lose their bankroll. I admire your sentiment, but it is somewhat naive.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

.

Re: Did I cheat?
 

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the same way i would use a tell if i picked it up,

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anyone at the table can pick up a tell, but only those sitting next to the newb can see his/her hole cards. It's unfair b/c the information is NOT available to everyone. The tell is available to everyone - but some people just won't pick up on it.