When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I'm 'slumming' 4 tables of 2/4 cause I few 1000 hands short of 10k needed for the 911 freeroll. I leave off my action and will discuss

Hand 1 :
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero...

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Hand 2:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero...

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1 - Don't bet. The big obvious flush draw just got there as well as the J on the turn which isn't very good for your hand either. Consider calling 1 bet, consider folding.

Hand 2 - Uh, don't bet, but more importantly - what's that turn checkraise? One opponent calls you and another raises you on a drawless board of A44 and you checkraise the turn??

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I'd check and fold in hand 1. No real chance of having the best hand here with second pair against the calling hordes.
Hand 2, check and see what the other 2 do in this one. Hand has played a bit wierd though. What do you put him on to raise the turn like that?


(edited as misread number of people seeing this hand to river in numero 2).

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1. Don't bet. The 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes a lot of hands that people could easily be drawing to.

Hand 2. Don't bet. Hopefully your turn check raise will win you a free showdown.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1: check river and see what happends
Hand 2: check river.
and i don't like check/raise on tern.
but i'd like to 3-bet flop for get mor information:
if CO cap - you'r behind - check/fold tern (if it isn't Ace, 4 or 5 on it).
if MP3&amp;CO call - i think, you'r also behind, but i depends of players type.
if MP3 folds and CO calls or vice versa - bet/fold tern, check/call river or somthing like that.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I haven't played full ring in a while but I'm pretty sure I'd fold the flop in Hand 1.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played full ring in a while but I'm pretty sure I'd fold the flop in Hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're going to fold top-pair with a backdoor straight draw when given the perfect opportunity to knock out the field with a flop raise and greatly improve your chances of winning a decent pot?!?

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Yeah. SB just bet into a field of 6, there's a very good chance he has you beat. Couple that the fact that the board is very drawy and there are 5 loose players behind you, one of whom could also already have you beat and many of whom could easily have you beat by the river, your position is really bad and your hand is only mediocre so your implied odds are terrible but the implied odds you're offering your opponents are good, even making the field face 2 cold is probably not enough to stop lots of overcard hands calling and you're going to pay off a lot of the time an overcard falls, when you are behind (which I think is often) you have probably 3 outs but when ahead your hand is very vulnerable, I think it's a fold.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

hand 1: check/fold. So many people in, someone is bound to have hit their flush. Coldcalls anywhere (like the flop in this case) is often a dead giveaway for a flush draw. 2nd pair will rarely beat a large field like this.

hand 2: I'd bet, but that could very well be chip-spewing. This is a wierd hand, but you showed a lot of strength and mp3 still cold called. Without any decent reads I would put mp3 on 88 or _maybe_ a weak ace that you tie, and CO on AJ. Hopefully he had A9 and you split mp3's donation to the pot.

Anyway after CO's call on the turn, I don't see him raising the river so you may as well bet instead of check/call for the same price. If he calls with 99 instead of checking it behind, you win an extra BB.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
SB just bet into a field of 6 limpers, there's a very good chance he has a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.

[ QUOTE ]
Couple that the fact that the board is very drawy and there are 5 loose players behind you

[/ QUOTE ]
This defines the reason to raise. Draws will call any bet - it doesn't matter if it's one or two. The important point is: They're Drawing! Get the value from them now!

[ QUOTE ]
even making the field face 2 cold is probably not enough to stop lots of overcard hands calling and you're going to pay off a lot of the time an overcard falls, when you are behind (which I think is often) you have probably 3 outs but when ahead your hand is very vulnerable, I think it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Overcard hands (not holding a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) like KJ/AQ are not calling 2SBs profitably on the flop. Folding them really helps increase Heros chances of winning by showdown.

Why do you feel that Hero is forced to pay off when an over card hits? Hero raises the flop because he was put in a great position to dramtically increase his chances of winning a nice-sized pot. Just because he raises does not commit him to going to showdown.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. SB just bet into a field of 6, there's a very good chance he has you beat. Couple that the fact that the board is very drawy and there are 5 loose players behind you, one of whom could also already have you beat and many of whom could easily have you beat by the river, your position is really bad and your hand is only mediocre so your implied odds are terrible but the implied odds you're offering your opponents are good, even making the field face 2 cold is probably not enough to stop lots of overcard hands calling and you're going to pay off a lot of the time an overcard falls, when you are behind (which I think is often) you have probably 3 outs but when ahead your hand is very vulnerable, I think it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I maybe do not expect to win this hand when I see the flop. But at the same time, an unknown SB opening the betting is not going to make me fold yet.

You might be ahead, you have a few outs if you are behind. Also I think this hand is pretty easy to get away from when it does go bad.

That said, I could see in NL, where this could devlope into a fairly ugly situation. But in limit, you are probably not going to put too many bets in the pot with this hand when you are/get beat.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1. Check/fold looks best

Hand 2. The turn checkraise looks good to face MP with 2 and because the T that came improves your kicker and likely means you will split the pot with CO who probably has an ace that outkicked you before. I'm not sure what MP is hanging around with when he calls. I hope it's not hearts. I think check is the way to go here. If MP bets, I probably call but with reduced expectations.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

1) Check-call.
2) Check-call. I do not like the turn check-raise at all - why did you feel it was good? You're praying for a split pot. What do you put CO on that you beat? Or are you focusing on getting MP3 outta there? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Hand 2 check-raise
 

Hi,

Everyone is questioning the turn CR on hand 2. Some explination.

My read on CO was he was value raising an ace, since there was no draw and frankly any ace on that board should be raised for value.

I'm a habitual bluffer from the BB into 2 LP limpers, so I will also bet a 4 here. I know they don't have 4's, but I'm the BB, I could have a 4. So onto the turn...

The T, almost always counterfits everyone's kicker if they did have an ace, so I'm 'freerolling' my bluff of having the 4, so I CR the turn representing an 4. It is 2/4 and nobody folds, but I can dream can't I?

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

I'm pretty sure this kinda hand play is right out of SSHE. I also would never have made it before reading SSHE.

You have TP and a backdoor draw into a field of limpers. You raise to face the field with two cold on the flop since its likely you have the best hand now that becomes the worst hand on the turn as an over card hurts you.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I think we can agree the the sb limper has either a strong hand or a strong draw.

[ QUOTE ]
Overcard hands (not holding a diamond) like KJ/AQ are not calling 2SBs profitably on the flop. Folding them really helps increase Heros chances of winning by showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that they're not calling 2sbs profitably, but that doesn't mean they're not calling. "Aha," you might say, "if they're calling unprofitably then that means we are profiting." That's not necessarily true though, if the sb has a strong hand he is profiting off of them and us and if he has a strong draw then he is siphoning off a lot of our profit because he wins a lot of the time when they don't improve but he does.

And this is just talking about the hand like the only players who can have a good hand are us and the sb, when of course that's not the case and there is a high chance that one of the 5 players behind us will have us beat by the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you feel that Hero is forced to pay off when an over card hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say see showdown, but say you raise and two people cold call and the turn is any overcard. Are you check-folding? And if you bet and don't get raised, well you're in a tough situation on the river and prone to error while allowing any opponents in position to play the river almost perfectly.

And let me reiterate just how bad your implied odds are, say someone 3-bets the flop, do they have diamonds, an oesd, a set, a worse top pair, a better top pair, a pair with a high diamond? It's very difficult to tell and you're in a very tough spot for the rest of the hand.

Or what if there are coldcallers and sb 3-bets the flop? If he's aggro enough to bet a strong draw into that many players, he's probably aggro enough to 3-bet the flop multiway with a draw. But of course he'd also play a strong made hand this way. So what are you going to do, call a blank turn and allow hands behind you to see the river for one bet (and the pot will be so huge by then that almost any hand is profitably calling)? Raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet while taking a free showdown? But you don't really want to fold to a 3-bet, the pot is going to be very big and the equity you're giving up even if you have only a few outs is quite a lot. And what if someone behind you cold-calls?

Obviously you'd need more specifics to answer these questions exactly but what I'm saying is that there are a lot of ways for this hand to go wrong which is expensive, and not that many for it to go right, and when it does go right then you're frequently going to not win all that much.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

I'm not praying, I *KNOW* its a split pot.

MP3 called on the on an ace high flop and then over called. He has an ace or is donating to the pot. The Turn CR has some chance of him folding another ace or getting a 2BB donation since he apparently is in love with his hand.

Either way, someone is donating 2BB to this pot and its not me.

For a more detailed explination see my reply marked "2-hand hand check-raise".

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1 is an easy check and see what happens kind of situation. I might call 1 bet from one player depending on where the bet came from. I would not call 2 bets, or a bet and a call.

In Hand 2, I don't understand the turn c/r. CO has either a 4 or an A and he's not folding either of these holdings, MP3 could have a wide range of hands. Once the 10 hits the turn, you are splitting with other weak Aces. Plus, given a likely split w/the CO, why do we want to knock out MP3 with something like middle pair.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Also with regard to the flop play in Hand 1, see this thread, specifically the comment by Sklansky.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

This pot will be huge by showdown if things go wrong or right. When I do win I get payed off handsomly because of the flop raise ties everyone to the pot.

They can play their hand perfectly on the river when I check, butI can only *slightly* misplay my hand. Not value betting middle pair into 5 players is a minor error as is folding middle pair here given the field size and the draw completing river.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This pot will be huge by showdown if things go wrong or right.

[/ QUOTE ]

It will be huger when your hand is not best.

But yeah, given the size of the pot by then the river play doesn't matter that much, but what about my other points?

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

i'm not betting either one

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. SB just bet into a field of 6, there's a very good chance he has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm betting [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s here 100% of the time.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Read my other post in this thread, Bob.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think we can agree the the sb limper has either a strong hand or a strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will agree that SB has either some made hand or some draw. I will not agree that they are neccessarily strong and in doing so, I think you're giving too much credit to the average Party 2/4 player.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that they're not calling 2sbs profitably, but that doesn't mean they're not calling. "Aha," you might say, "if they're calling unprofitably then that means we are profiting." That's not necessarily true though, if the sb has a strong hand he is profiting off of them and us and if he has a strong draw then he is siphoning off a lot of our profit because he wins a lot of the time when they don't improve but he does.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a good point. Don't discount that many times hands that call Hero's flop raise are sharing outs which is favorable for Hero.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say see showdown, but say you raise and two people cold call and the turn is any overcard. Are you check-folding?

[/ QUOTE ]
No - I bet. I've gained no evidence that I don't have the best hand.

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And if you bet and don't get raised, well you're in a tough situation on the river and prone to error while allowing any opponents in position to play the river almost perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to have to reevaluate on the river. Based only on the possibility that I'll be in a bad situation on the river is not influencing the way I'd choose to play the hand on the flop or turn. You're going to be missing some value in your game if you are making flop/turn decisions based on the possibility that something bad might happen by the river. You're not going to improve as a player if you constantly "shy-away" from possible difficult situations (note: everyone may fold - there's a reasonable chance that you might not even have that difficult situation).

[ QUOTE ]
And let me reiterate just how bad your implied odds are, say someone 3-bets the flop, do they have diamonds, an oesd, a set, a worse top pair, a better top pair, a pair with a high diamond? It's very difficult to tell and you're in a very tough spot for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes - I would be in a difficult spot. But again - that possibility is not influencing my initial flop decision to not put myself in there and get dirty.

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Obviously you'd need more specifics to answer these questions exactly

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It's true - this would be a difficult hand that would require a lot of reevaluation during the hand. That's not a reason to give up on top-pair for 1SB in a decent sized pot.

[ QUOTE ]
what I'm saying is that there are a lot of ways for this hand to go wrong which is expensive, and not that many for it to go right, and when it does go right then you're frequently going to not win all that much.

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot, with several callers PF and a bet flop is now 4BB big enough that I don't need to play it perfectly that often to break even on it. I will concede that the difference between raising and folding the flop is probably not significant over the long run in terms of BB/hand. What is significant is the knowledge that you'll gain by playing in difficult situations versus only exploiting edges that you know are large.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I don't think I'm giving "too much credit" to the average 2/4er, I haven't played that game for a while but I recall that most players were too loose and too passive. And I wasn't suggesting that you do check-fold the turn when an overcard comes, that would be absurd.

[ QUOTE ]
What is significant is the knowledge that you'll gain by playing in difficult situations versus only exploiting edges that you know are large.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't post much in this forum anymore, if I did you'd know I'm quite happy to exploit small edges. I don't think this is a small edge, I think you lose money by continuing here.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not praying, I *KNOW* its a split pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know it's a split pot then why are you knocking out the other player with a c/r?

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

Because they don't *know* its a split pot. Since I'm the BB they have to be worried I have a 4 as I'm playing the hand exactly like someone would with a 4.

If I can fold out an ace thats great, if not I hope Party enjoys the extra rake.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I don't think a flop fold is a bad idea here. I think it's close. If he's betting a draw we're about 50/50 to win anyway since he's likely got an overcard diamond. And there are 4 people behind us yet. A draw heavy board and TP questionable kicker in a big field with a still fairly small pot at this point doesn't seem like a bad time to muck to me. I think raising is better than calling but folding wouldn't be giving up much here if any.

The turn check/raise in hand two makes no sense. I'd rather check/fold than check/raise.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

Everyone needs to read *why* I CR'd the turn on hand two. See my post, hand 2 check-raise.

Recap, I'm the BB I can have a 4, I'm 90% certain its a slit pot, getting another ace to fold *might* happen. Its never to early to start thinking about the Meta-game.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: Hand 2 check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
My read on CO was he was value raising an ace, since there was no draw and frankly any ace on that board should be raised for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
So what leads you to believe that after value-raising his Ace he's going to fold?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a habitual bluffer from the BB into 2 LP limpers, so I will also bet a 4 here. I know they don't have 4's, but I'm the BB, I could have a 4.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know they don't have a 4? How's that?

[ QUOTE ]
The T, almost always counterfits everyone's kicker if they did have an ace, so I'm 'freerolling' my bluff of having the 4, so I CR the turn representing an 4. It is 2/4 and nobody folds, but I can dream can't I?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, you can dream. It's just -EV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

If SB three bets the entire field, I could be in trouble. I will call and hope I'm not drawing dead. If he bets into an over card/diamond that doesn't give me a gutshot or two pair I'm folding as my two pair outs are dirty.

If I call a 3 bet and someone caps behind me I cry and pray I hit my runner runner str8.

Yes, The pot will be much larger when I'm behind, but there are some good cards in the deck for me other then a 9/T so peeling one off has to be done if we get played back at.

In the A8 hand you posted about on a 875 two flush board, his only outs if behind are runner runner FH or a split pot. If somehow he'd had 89 or A8 with a backdoor flush I think he should continue on rather then fold as he has redraws on a lot of the bad turn cards.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: Hand 2 check-raise
 

Hi,

I know CO doesn't have a 4 because the 2/4 regulars don't fast play a 4 on the flop. They wait to raise the turn.

So that leaves MP, if he has a 4, Boo hoo I lose the 2BB I would have paid to see a showdown when he 3 bets and I fold, but an open limper is so rarely going to have a 4 I'm willing to bet 2BB on it.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: Hand 2 check-raise
 

You're original post was absurd - I've fixed it for you...

[ QUOTE ]
I know CO doesn't have a 4 because I've seen the results of the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

MP3 is calling with something...likely one of the two remaining A's. CO would raise a 4 here as well on the flop and there are two 4's left. Plus CO posted and a 4 is just as likely as an ace. So you should be less than 50% sure. And since some aces do beat you probably more like 30% you're chopping. Also consider that CO is more likely to raise the flop with a 4 than a weak ace. The flop raise itself makes a 4 more likely. So all things considered I think about 75% of the time you're toast here and even calling down is questionable, IMO.

Meta-game doesn't really apply as much online and certainly not at Party 2/4.

You have little to no chance of getting a typical 2/4 player to lay down an ace...especially if he's raising the flop with it.

Re: Hand 2 check-raise
 

lol... Nice rebuttal...

So you disgree that your typical 2/4 player would wait till the turn to raise a 4?

I should make a poll, but you and I already know an overwhelming majority of SSHE posters will say your typical 2/4 player will NOT raise a 4 on this flop.

Sure a good player will raise the flop here for value as any ace is coming along, but we are talking typical 2/4 player. You know, the kind who ONLY 3 bets preflop with AA-JJ/AK/AQ but will limp with any two random cards. Or is there even a typical 2/4 player profile in your mind or do you just agree with posters you know and disagree with posters you don't know REGARDLESS if the give they same advice as you in THE EXACT SAME THREAD?

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

Then 2/4 has changed a lot in the year since I last played it. As back then nobody was raising a 4 on this flop as they'd wait till the turn to raise the guy with the ace who can't fold.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: Hand 2 check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you disgree that your typical 2/4 player would wait till the turn to raise a 4?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I disagree that you're 100% sure that he doesn't have a 4. I'd appreciate it if you would make a better attempt at interpreting my replies instead of instantly being argumentative regarding them.

[ QUOTE ]
You know, the kind who ONLY 3 bets preflop with AA-JJ/AK/AQ but will limp with any two random cards. Or is there even a typical 2/4 player profile in your mind or do you just agree with posters you know and disagree with posters you don't know REGARDLESS if the give they same advice as you in THE EXACT SAME THREAD?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is funny if you read this post/thread.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

Hand 1 :

Was checked around and I had dodged every over card that hurt me and I drag the pot.

Hand 2 :

I bet, MP3 called, CO delayed a bit and then called. CO and I split the pot and poor MP3's kings lose.

Maybe betting the turn would have been better as MP3 shouldnt have called two cold on the turn and apparently I'm the only one who folds to turn raises.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: Hand 2 check-raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know they don't have 4's, but I'm the BB, I could have a 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

By this reasoning why can't the poster have a 4? I know I always raise with 94o when I post, but I think that's not standard.