I hate my life.
 

Seat 2 was respected poster FrappeBoy, and villain is a douchebag.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___raises

4th Street - (10.70 SB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (6.85 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises

6th Street - (15.85 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (18.85 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (20.85 BB)

Re: I hate my life.
 

= enter the n00b perspective ==

I wouldn't have raised the complete personally, but I understand why you did it.

For my money at 5th st is where you should have folded.

Re: I hate my life.
 

Puke.

Fold third. With the Ace limping in, I find it unlikely that you will get it heads-up, and I find it quite likely that Frappe has a real hand. Especially in a tightly-structured game, there's just no reason to get involved.

Fifth is also a fold, in my estimation. There is nothing I hate more than calling when I'm beaten on board, but you have somehow succeeded in making this pot too big to fold on sixth.

Puke.

I can see why
 

Was this hand a joke?

I am confused.

IT was horribly played right from the start. I think you know it too. I can't see one thing you did that was correct.

CJ

Re: I can see why
 

I think that calling the three-bet on third is clearly correct. Getting to that point is another matter. I also think that calling the river is mandatory, but again, he should have folded a few different times before he got there.

Re: I can see why
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that calling the three-bet on third is clearly correct

[/ QUOTE ]

IT shouldn't have gotten to that point.

Yes, by the river.. a call is clearly correct. I agree.

CJ

Re: I hate my life.
 

Well played. Third is a reraise as frappe likely has nothing here. Hes a weak player and has light raising requirements, this means try to get it heads-up. More than likely hes just goofing around and felt like completing with nothing here. That ace that limped dosent scare me either. With both of your 4's still live you can suck out on him later, need be. You have a great hand here with (44)Q and you need to get money in this pot. Notice beer can make two pair, trips, a full house, quads, a royal flush, a strait flush, all are possible if he catches right later on. The rest of the hand he has outs as well and should chase to see what he catches. You cant suckout if you're not in there chasing. People who disagree with how this hand was played should remember the great advice Ray Zee just gave us "correct it as so be it will be the poor house". Or uhhhh.....something like that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Mike Emery

LOL
 

that was great!!!

CJ

Re: I hate my life.
 

Honestly, Beer I don't know what to say about this hand. I really don't see what value you think there is in this play in the long run. Not to mention on 6th the 8 seat no matter how dumb hits an open pair. I think you are drawing slim. You have to put him on a busted flush draw, a pair lower than the original jack raiser to make your call for a queen, king or four profitable. And if he happens to have aces then you are only drawing for a four.

Regardless of the result on this hand, if you are experiencing some swings or wondering why your hands played percentage is higher than you prefer, this is the type of hand I would definitely reevaluate. How many of these spots do you put yourself in. It only takes a few mistakes to bring a decent win down to a small winner or a losing session. The mistakes can add up faster than you realize.

One other thought about your play against Frappe, which I assume you were trying to get heads up or win outright through crafty high level play.

I recently got some good advice from a person whose poker skills I respect greatly when I complained that someone I consider a very solid player reraised my completion on 3rd with an ace in the door when i clearly had a big pair in the hole Kings or Queens. I folded fifth when my queen fell out and the ace also pairs his door card. He showed aces and jacks on the river...others continued in the hand so that's why I got to see it.

I was a little ticked that I was bullied on 3rd street, I said "Why bother doing that to me? The player should find a better spot and know that." (ego talking here). My friend chuckled and said come on "sara," you know when you are a good player it gives other good player some license to push you around. And you know that. But, now that you know what that player is capable of doing, you also know how to counter it.

You also know that if he decided that he is going to play the hand reraising might be better than calling as he should be attempting to get it heads up and possibly take it down right there.

Well of course I know what my friend said is absolutely correct. And probably would have said the same thing to him if he made the same complaint.

But it's funny, I don't recall making this kind of play against a good player (unless in a shorthanded game and realize that the raise could be a broad range of hands). However, I have less reservation doing it against a bad player more often because I know a) I most likely have the best hand b) if I don't I will punish him when i get there c) might spur some action from that player when I have a monster in the future.

The reasons why I don't do it against good players myself is a) they won't get too stupid on the hand and so there's no "real" money to be made at least at the limits and structure I am playing on line.

Just some thoughts....and one final note...Don't make that move with pocket fours Beer. Make it with pocket 10s with a two flush or AKQ suited. This hand shows a very marginal move and calls in my opinion all the way to the river. Way too loose.

Re: I hate my life.
 

That was above average, Mike.

Re: I hate my life.
 

Looks like vilian isn't the only douchebag in this hand........... Let me know if you wanna set up a heads up freeze out match, you pick the stakes.

-Dimitri

Re: I hate my life.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like vilian isn't the only douchebag in this hand........... Let me know if you wanna set up a heads up freeze out match, you pick the stakes.

-Dimitri

[/ QUOTE ]

OKAY... who'se gimmick account is this?!? OWN UP!

(if this isn't a gimmick acct, i love HU stud, up to 3/6... PM me.)

Re: I hate my life.
 

Thanks for the replies.



I honestly figured after so much money went in the pot on 3rd, it was suck out time. On fifth I figured a raise would better increase my chances of sucking out, as well as buy me a free card. I think both of these are reasonable ideas for a raise on 5th?

Clearly, the biggest disaster in this hand was the 3rd st. raise. However, I figured since there was a dead A, I wasn't in terrible shape.

No, this post wasn't a joke. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I hate my life.
 

Almost a decent hand Beer,

This move would be better if::
-the ante was bigger
-the Ace didn't limp (huge here)
-you couldn't get much action without moves like this

Too bad the nuances are very important here.

I would have to imagine that if you are sitting at a table of lstreams,Emerys,Rolands,Saras,Frappes (the whole Party medium stakes crowd) a play like this would be ok if and only if the Ace didn't limp. In a game of good players you need to be capable of moves like this so you can get action on your better hands.

When you can beat the game play super straightforward why not do that. It causes much less heartache.

Re: I hate my life.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly figured after so much money went in the pot on 3rd, it was suck out time. On fifth I figured a raise would better increase my chances of sucking out, as well as buy me a free card. I think both of these are reasonable ideas for a raise on 5th?


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like a good question to explore. To rephrase, When is it a "good idea" to run some-sort of play when you know you are behind? Some ideas: you could take advantage of a scary board (parlay your folding equity), semi-bluff (build future folding equity), pure bluff, build table image (others?)...

In this case, your board isn't very scary. Raising when you hit the 8s doesn't seem to signal anything here (I don't have much imagination though). I just don't think you have any folding equity, nor have the time to build any. Pure bluffing 2 people twice doesn't seem like a good idea either. I guess you are setting them up for a future hand?

I like the question though. If you apply it to heads-up play, like the $30-$60 hand discussed recently. When/why do you make that play? (a moderately strong flush draw brings in, and is raised by the opponent) I guess there is no algorithm to apply that could tell you "now is a good time to do the -EV thing"

Re: I hate my life.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I recently got some good advice from a person whose poker skills I respect greatly when I complained that someone I consider a very solid player reraised my completion on 3rd with an ace in the door when i clearly had a big pair in the hole Kings or Queens. I folded fifth when my queen fell out and the ace also pairs his door card. He showed aces and jacks on the river...others continued in the hand so that's why I got to see it.


[/ QUOTE ]


I think it was a big +EV decision to re-raise you there on 3rd - not because it was the right play, but because it was the wrong play.
Funny thing is, I was sitting there with JJA knowing I should fold but couldn’t bring myself to do it (you probably noticed that I paused for several seconds, thinking “she completed with a ten up and I have jacks… but there are two higher up cards than tens behind her… damnit…”) Now, every time I find myself in a similar situation, this hand pops up in my mind and I just fold and feel good about it. That’s why it was +EV to play that hand… it taught me a valuable lesson about 3rd street play against solid players.

I do think there are spots where you can try plays like this, but they are few and far between. When you have a good hand (usually at least a premium pair) and there are a solid player with a better pair but also a STF (to use Sara’s term) with most likely total crap in the pot, getting the solid player to fold would be great. The problem is, it doesn’t always work out that well - the solid player might see through your little ploy and call you anyway (like Chef did in the that hand we played). Or the STF might suddenly decide to randomise his play and fold. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Like I said, there are very few spots where plays like this are +EV in the tight
Party structure. In a higher ante game things are probably a lot different.

Re: I hate my life.
 

I thought you and I would share this secretly... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] but now the world knows.

Love Ya Anyway Roland.