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- - QQ check/raised on turn What do you do? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=295865)

grjr	07-19-2005 06:33 AM

QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

Just sat down so no reads on anyone. What do you do on the turn (and river if you call the turn)?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero??

@bsolute_luck

07-19-2005 06:37 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

i'll call that with no reads.

can't comment on river 'til i see it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ClintD

07-19-2005 06:40 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

With no reads do you feel like there is an 8:1 chance he is value betting one of those many draws?

Could have been doing so on the flop and made his straight on the turn. I think you are getting enough to call and check/call on the river.

Fantam

07-19-2005 06:49 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

If you call the turn and check/call the river UI the effective odds that you are getting are about 9:2 or 4.5:1.

So I would feel inclined to fold to the turn raise here.

toss	07-19-2005 06:53 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

What range of hands do you think villain will raise with here? Theres two flush draws out and a striaght draw. I think this makes it a harder decision.

grjr	07-19-2005 06:53 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

[ QUOTE ]
i'll call that with no reads.

can't comment on river 'til i see it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, then assume you call the turn and something like the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits. Do you check/call?

@bsolute_luck

07-19-2005 07:10 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'll call that with no reads.

can't comment on river 'til i see it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, then assume you call the turn and something like the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits. Do you check/call?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd probably check/call anything that is a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

though looking back on the hand, i can see arguments for folding the turn with a K and straight draws coming in against an unknown.

the other line possible is to bet a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and fold to a raise, but i never like that line HU on the river.

Watain

07-19-2005 08:28 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I think you are drawing dead here. I seems like he have a pair of K, a set or a straight. The best you could hope for is a semi-bluff with a open straight draw (unlikely) or a full-blown bluff (even more unliky).

Let´s say you are in front 5% of the times here. If you give this one up you´ll lose 0,4 big bet. And you have to call 2 big bets to se the river. You have 4 % of hitting the Q on the river, but with the st8 draw i would say that it would only make you a winner 2% of the times.

So let´s say have 6% pot equity, that´s around 0,5 big bet.

Fold the bastard.

MrEngenic

07-19-2005 08:47 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I call down no matter what I think.

Iq75	07-19-2005 08:58 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

[ QUOTE ]
If you call the turn and check/call the river UI the effective odds that you are getting are about 9:2 or 4.5:1.

So I would feel inclined to fold to the turn raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep,

in theory i dont think that the villain is semibluffraising a flush draw or a straight draw or just plain bluffing often enough to make this call.

but in practice i allways call and check/call the river [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

PJM1206

07-19-2005 09:01 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I see 3 options: (1) re-raise, (2) call, (3) fold.
Option 1 -- If the villan is on a draw you make him pay. He may be looking for a free card and the option to win right there. He may also have a pair like TT or JJ trying to drive out hands like QQ or JJ etc. If that is the case then I would think maybe he calls your reraise and checks on river unless he makes it. If he re-raises you I would say he has the set and I would then fold vice 2 more Big bets.

Option 2 --- you could call and check to the river to get more info on the villan. Does he raise for ogther than value betting etc etc and what he will raise with.

Option 3 fold --- Because you have no read he may have been slow playing a monster, may have a set etc etc

Option 3 is out for me. Both option 1&2 cost the same 2 more BBs so....... Option 1 gets me there. I re-raise and if he re-reraise I fold if not on the river if a rag comes I check and call.

parappa

07-19-2005 09:02 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I really need a read here, but I understand you don't have one. So, I'm folding. He's telling you that he can beat top pair, you don't have any particular reason not to believe him, and even a weak top pair beats you. Maybe he has something like 77, but I've lost a lot of money calling down in this spot trying to catch a bluff, and at this point I'd need a read that he was tricky or laggy in order to call this down.

ArturiusX

07-19-2005 09:51 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I can lay this down vs a solid player. Vs a normal idiot, calllllll dooooown moooooode.

davelin

07-19-2005 10:02 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

FYI, no one check/raised you.

car ramrod

07-19-2005 10:04 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

A fold is probably correct. That being said, you need some notes on this guy. Its impossible to know the right play without a read. Unknown, call down and take notes on him.

jrz1972

07-19-2005 10:44 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

The fact that there are two flush draws plus some straight possiblities makes this interesting since villain could be semi-bluff raising. At least in my experience, though, there aren't a lot of opponents who are capable of making that play. What I do run across occasionally are people who play this way with something like 99. The most likely scenario, though, is that villain has exactly what he's representing and I'm way behind a K.

Against some opponents I would call this down anyway while against others I can fold without a second thought. Against an unknown it's probably right to fold but I know I often call it down anyway.

Reraising, which somebody suggested earlier, is terrible. That's only right if villain is exactly on a draw, which is the least likely scenario.

invictus33

07-19-2005 10:44 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I don't see how this is a call at all. You are pretty much stuck with what you have and have no chance of improving. There are two draws on the board and an over card on top of the fact that this betting pattern looks like slow playing a set. If the K were not on the board then I would say call the raise and check/call the river if it's a blank. Why bother throwing money at what could easily be a dominated hand?

Sir Bruce

07-19-2005 11:20 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

I'd call the turn raise and reevaluate based on the river card. MP3 could have a made hand, or just a pair and some strong draws. Unless the river is a total blank, I'd probably check/call.

DMBFan23

07-19-2005 11:29 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

grjr	07-19-2005 07:55 PM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

[ QUOTE ]
Just sat down so no reads on anyone. What do you do on the turn (and river if you call the turn)?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
MP3 has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB. 

So it turned out to be a semi-bluff raise on the turn. I'd really like to know what you all think of MP3's play since one guy on the table called him an idiot.

Do any of you guys make a bluff raise like this here?

grjr	07-19-2005 08:46 PM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, no one check/raised you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right and I just noticed that I put that in the title. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

If I can get some comments on MP3's play I'll explain how I made that mistake.

PJM1206

07-19-2005 09:05 PM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

I liked his play. By raising the turn he had the chance to win right there. If you called he had 12 (9 hearts and 3 Aces) outs which is pretty good. If he was going to call to the river on his draw it cost him the same either way 2BB. The bet on the river is obviosuly a bluff and the pot was large enough based on the way he palyed the hand to give it a try

I hadnt given this any thought until this post. I know plan to use this if the opportuniy arises.

Nick C

07-19-2005 09:35 PM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just sat down so no reads on anyone. What do you do on the turn (and river if you call the turn)?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
MP3 has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB. 

So it turned out to be a semi-bluff raise on the turn. I'd really like to know what you all think of MP3's play since one guy on the table called him an idiot.

Do any of you guys make a bluff raise like this here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against me, the turn raise is probably a good play.

Against typical 1/2 players, I'm not so sure.

If you fold one time in four (and with QQ-TT, which is 18 combos, it's not an easy call), he's already gotten a break-even return on his investment, if we look at it as a pure bluff.

But it's not a pure bluff. From his perspective, he's got nine heart outs (he doesn't know one is in your hand), 3 non-heart gutshot outs that are probably good against a PFR (though the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is more tainted than the others), and potentially 3 top pair outs.

So, when you call, he's still got a decent chance to win. However, when you've got AK (9 combos), AA (3 combos), and especially KK (3 combos) you might 3-bet, and MP3 can't fold to that and is charging himself to draw.

On the other hand, he puts some pocket pairs to a decision, and if by some chance you've been firing with AQo, then it's going to be difficult for you to call, though you have the best hand.

Against a player who won't fold, the play loses much of its value. Also, I think Villain's pure bluff on the river was probably not worth it. He can't hope to fold much that you called with on the turn except a big suited A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and that's just not going to be what you have very often. But if you'll always 3-bet AK/AA/KK on the turn and your call means exactly QQ-TT or a flush draw, then I guess firing again in the hopes of pushing you off of AQs-AJs in spades is worth a shot, and then then if we can add ATs to your range, then the river bluff gains additional potential.

Anyway, in my experience in small stakes, players who make semi-bluffs like this tend to do it a lot, often with far fewer outs than Villain had, and when it's overused, the semibluff becomes a less dangerous weapon, I think.

Aaron W.

07-19-2005 09:54 PM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just sat down so no reads on anyone. What do you do on the turn (and river if you call the turn)?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
MP3 has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB. 

So it turned out to be a semi-bluff raise on the turn. I'd really like to know what you all think of MP3's play since one guy on the table called him an idiot.

Do any of you guys make a bluff raise like this here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a semi-bluff raise (important distinction -- important enough that I'll point it out even though you called it right the first time), and it's good against a player capable of folding. You must always consider your opposition when you make these plays. He also needs to be aware of his image, because if he does this too often, he's going to get himself looked up too often.

He should have checked behind on the river, since the he's not folding anybody who called the turn raise AND has a better hand than him. Okay, maybe a better Axs, but there aren't many of those which raise preflop from the big blind...

By the way, this brings out a good point. Players bluff/semi-bluff at these levels far more often than most people realize. A lot of posters here are too busy believing that everybody is a passive-predictable donk that they don't see the diversity of players out there.

This is why reads are important, and why lots of players using HUDs are really killing themselves from a developmental point of view. If you're not looking, you're never going to see it.

@bsolute_luck

07-19-2005 10:49 PM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

beautiful check/call on the river. i know i suggested betting back into him on a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but you'll just fold a busted flush draw, he may bet again (as he did), you get to see his cards to see how he plays.

grjr	07-20-2005 12:34 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

Ok, I'll come clean on this one now. In fact, I was MP3 in this hand. I posted it like I did because I wanted to see how many people here would fold to the turn raise. Looks like about half which is what I would have thought.

I use the semi-bluff turn raise fairly often. However, it's usually a check/raise--which seems to be the "Spanish Inquistion" of semi-bluff raises. As in, "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquistion". [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

When I posted this thread I obviously thought I check/raised the turn (I didn't). Not sure if I thought that during the hand or not. When the action got to me heads up on the turn the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] seemed to be the perfect card to semi-bluff with. It gave me a ton of outs and made a possible straight on the board.

When the BB called my bet on the river I was sure he had a King and was surprised when I saw the QQ. Much of the time I can get QQ to fold there--which is one reason I bet on the river. The river bet also folds Ace anything but two pair.

In looking back at the hand now there were two things that weren't optimal for this play to work. I had position on the raiser which then doesn't allow the shock of the C/R. Also, the raiser was in the BB which makes the odds of him raising with Ax less.

I think the thread has been a success though since at least one poster realized that the turn semi-bluff can be a good play and maybe some of the Micro-Tighties will realize that there are people like me out there in MicroLand who aren't always raising the turn with the goods.

One other thing I wanted to mention. Even if the play fails and you lose the pot it still may win you that much in later play since now people will be more inclined to call your turn raises and river bets. Since this is the case you pretty much have to bet with the goods at that table the rest of the time--or at least until you've shown down some good hands. Keep 'em guessin'.

Here's the actual hand:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
Hero has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB.

benkath1

07-20-2005 12:40 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

This doesn't look like a check raise to me. But anyway, tough spot. I find myself here all the time. Me personally, I call and show down as cheap as possible. I find people waiting till the turn to raise top pair a lot. No way I'm folding.

Nice hand to post BTW.

eviljeff

07-20-2005 12:51 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

absent a read that mp3 is super tricky, I muck. I can't think of anything reasonable he has that you beat.

edit: just noticed that you weren't actually check/raised. I call down.

benkath1

07-20-2005 12:57 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

OK from this side of the fence now. I can see why you made the semi bluff raise on the turn, but I don't understand the river bet. I don't see any player at party 1/2 calling a turn raise and folding the river for one.

grjr	07-20-2005 01:07 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

[ QUOTE ]
OK from this side of the fence now. I can see why you made the semi bluff raise on the turn, but I don't understand the river bet. I don't see any player at party 1/2 calling a turn raise and folding the river for one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that 3 out of 4 or so that fold to this play do so on the river. Also, if I DON"T bet the river then I'm just handing him 9BBs because I have 0% chance of winning that way.

grjr	07-20-2005 01:14 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

[ QUOTE ]
absent a read that mp3 is super tricky, I muck. I can't think of anything reasonable he has that you beat.

edit: just noticed that you weren't actually check/raised. I call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your edit is funny because it proves my point about check/raises vs. raises. When you sit back and think about it though, why is a C/R more powerful than a regular raise? It's still only one extra BB. Your relative postion is the only difference.

I guess it's something that is ingrained into all poker players and something we should be aware of in order to take advantage of it.

TomBrooks

07-20-2005 01:23 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

Hero folds. When someone raises on the turn, it means they have TPTK or better.

Edit: Ohhhhh, not in this case, I see.

PS: check through the river in the real hand where you were MP.

grjr	07-20-2005 01:27 AM

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

[ QUOTE ]
Hero folds. When someone raises on the turn, it means they have TPTK or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh.

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