affects of 2+2 on me
 

6 months ago I would have said I was 50/50 as to whether god existed or not, and would have said if anything I was a christian.

Now I think it is nearly impossible that there is a god (which makes me sad) that exists in anyway that is commonly described and out of all the religions I would say judism is probably has the best (albeit slim) chanve of being correct.

If I end up in hell, I will come looking for revenge (i'm looking at you D.S.)

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

"Effects".

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Poker effects: good
Life effects: bad, i should be playing more poker and posting less in politics forum

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

50/50 is hard to believe, did you even think about it much? I mean if you thought there was a 50/50 chance there was a God out there I would hope it would become important to find out more as soon as possible.

I'm sure you always thought there was a 100% chance that if there was a God he didn't require you to worship him. Otherwise you are one big gambler.

If there is a God and he required me to worship him to receive perks I would be madder at him than I would be at D.S. if I ended up in hell.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

by 50/50 I guess I meant somewhat likely

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Saying you were 50% a Christian is the same as saying you are 50% a virgin. You never were a Christian actually because although individual Christians might have a certain level of doubt, especially regarding specific doctrines, 50% is so a high a level IMO as to not really possess faith. However, 50% is a great starting point from which to read God's word and to pray for greater faith. No one will ever intellectualize themselves into being a true believer. Only the experience of practicing that faith, albeit with doubts, and seeing life from the perspective of faith can enable God's grace to be effecacious. It not necessary that the level of doubt ever become 0, but an extremely high level of doubt will not allow one to respond to the promptings of grace. C.S. Lewis's book Mere Christianity, will show that reason can get you very far along the way, but that one still has to make a "leap of faith" to truly become a Christian.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Hi [censored]:

You should be able to find DS in the horse book. You know, the one where your horse always comes in one out of the money for your bet.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

I do agree with the feeling of sadness once you think there is little chance there is a God.

What I find amazing however is that those that are born again or find a stronger belief in God later on in their life seem to change the way they act in positive ways.

And people who decide there is little or no chance a God exists just feel sad. They never start behaving badly just because they feel they can get away with it now. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So it is easier to act good than it is to become evil?

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

The three most compelling arguements that changed me were

1) Belief in god not being consistent through out history. ie the greeks and all there weird ass stuff (zeus, apollo)

2) the differences between religions

3) the "code of conduct" of god being ideal rules dor a society to thrive.

Also I had never really thought about the discrepancy between the old and new testiment.

Anyways I still have a very positive opinion of religion as a whole.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]

1) Belief in god not being consistent through out history. ie the greeks and all there weird ass stuff (zeus, apollo)

2) the differences between religions

[/ QUOTE ]

I am referring only to catholicism since you have that partial background. How is God being inconsistent just because some people believe things contrary to what He has revealed, whether weird or not? He is consistent, people aren't.

[ QUOTE ]
3) the "code of conduct" of god being ideal rules dor a society to thrive.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by this you mean that a religion's morality, even if true, shouldn't be imposed by a civil society, then I would agree in *most* cases that do not affect a person's life or property directly, that is, if a person's life or property is not being directly threatened by some action. Thus, I certainly would not agree that society should punish someone as in puritan new england for not attending services or for blasphemy. But surely you do not think that Christian moral prescriptions regarding not injuring another when not in self-defense, or not lawfully depriving another person of his property should not be part of civil law do you?

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

It seems these are more reasons to not follow an organized religion than to not believe in God.


Are you losing faith in God or just your religion?

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
then there is


PairTheBoard

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

It might seem that I am trying to get on your ignore list, but I am not. I don't want you ignoring me I'm not sure why as I am sure several people are ignoring me already. But I hope that is because I give bad poker advice. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I don't like your reasons, you need better ones for something this important.

1) Belief in god not being consistent through out history. ie the greeks and all there weird ass stuff (zeus, apollo)
<font color="blue"> Almost all cultures had some type of belief. So the details were all different it does not mean the idea was wrong. It could be used to promote the likelyhood of a God. Plus what did the greeks ever get right? </font>

2) the differences between religions
<font color="blue">Same as 1 </font>

3) the "code of conduct" of god being ideal rules dor a society to thrive.
<font color="blue"> We would only know if everyone followed the code. </font>


I would give you my reasons why I have choosen to be agnostic, but I'm sure you have heard it all before. It is a common theme around here. Sorry if I sound like a jerk here, it is not my intention. I just think you need better reasons but I am not smart enough to explain it properly. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Anyway don't put God on the list till you are sure he is Dead.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

basically my reasons add up to me concluding that it seems almost certain that the idea of god being the creation of man. It just kind of hit me all of a sudden as I realized I had no reason to believe in god, so then I thought about it for a while and when I came to the point I am now.

disagreeing with me never gets somebody ignored. I prefer it.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
3) the "code of conduct" of god being ideal rules dor a society to thrive

[/ QUOTE ]

what I meant by that is the concepts of heaven and hell seem to be the perfect carrot and stick method of getting people to conform to behaviors that are ideal for society as a whole. It doesnt suprise me then that these beliefs would change over time or be different depending on the society.

This basically explained in my own mind where religion camer from and why it is the way it is.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
what I meant by that is the concepts of heaven and hell seem to be the perfect carrot and stick method of getting people to conform to behaviors that are ideal for society as a whole. It doesnt suprise me then that these beliefs would change over time or be different depending on the society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Christianity spent its first 300 years in persecution and martyrdom facing oppression from the governing authority of Roman society, this would not seem to validate your view that religious morality is just a tool to induce conformance to society's rules.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what I meant by that is the concepts of heaven and hell seem to be the perfect carrot and stick method of getting people to conform to behaviors that are ideal for society as a whole. It doesnt suprise me then that these beliefs would change over time or be different depending on the society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Christianity spent its first 300 years in persecution and martyrdom facing oppression from the governing authority of Roman society, this would not seem to validate your view that religious morality is just a tool to induce conformance to society's rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point.

Don't take anything I say as an attack on religion. I have no hostility towards faith and I certainly don't consider those who are to be less logical, objective ot whatever adjective has been used for smart. My father goes to church every sunday and he is the greatest man I know.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

You sound like a great son to him too. And maybe the reason he is such a great man is due in no small part to his religious faith and its effects on his life. I don't mean to preach, but maybe if you started going to mass again on sundays, just sitting in the back pew and listening, and reading a few chapters of the gospel every day, you might find out what makes your father who he is, and that you have a heavenly Father who loves you just as much and wants you to be a son to Him as well.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

"You sound like a great son to him too. And maybe the reason he is such a great man is due in no small part to his religious faith and its effects on his life. I don't mean to preach, but maybe if you started going to mass again on sundays, just sitting in the back pew and listening, and reading a few chapters of the gospel every day, you might find out what makes your father who he is, and that you have a heavenly Father who loves you just as much and wants you to be a son to Him as well."

Such a nice man. But Not Ready thinks you are probably going to hell. And Bossjj thinks you are probably going to heaven (as do Sklanskians). Even though your beliefs are far closer to his. Don't you find that unsettling?

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

I only care about what they think in that I care about the truth, which I don't think they fully have. They won't be the judge of my eternal fate, God will. So why should I be unsettled?

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am referring only to catholicism since you have that partial background. How is God being inconsistent just because some people believe things contrary to what He has revealed, whether weird or not? He is consistent, people aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, how can we know what has actually been revealed from God? Jews, Christians and Muslims all claim that God said different things. How can we know which, if any, alleged "holy" book really is from God?

According to Christian theology, God is not consistent at all. He supposedly gave a "new testament" that completely contradicts everything He had said in the "old testament."

For example, according to the Hebrew bible, sincere repentence alone atones for sins committed; God is one, He is not a man, and we are to worship Him alone; God is "near to all those who call upon Him" and no mediator is necessary; We Jews are to observe Torah law forever and to go to our own sages for questions of interpretation; We must not follow anybody like Jesus or the gt authors who tell us not to follow Torah Law; The messiah will usher in an age of world peace and universal knowledge of God - He won't atone for our sins because that's just not his role, as God forgives us our sins when we repent. Jesus' alleged death couldn't atone for sin.

However, God was either lying about all this, or just changed His mind and changed the rules completely. He supposedly gave a new "truth" that is the complete opposite of everything He had said before, and that Jews should now follow the type of person that He had commanded us not to follow, and that we know longer have to follow laws that He had said were eternal.

If God really does change His mind and change the rules; if He send "messiahs" or "prophets" to establish new religions and explain the new rules, then you have no way of knowing if Christianity is still the correct religion to follow. Maybe Mohammed and Joseph Smith really were a prophets from God, and therefore you are disobeying God by continuing to follow Jesus and remaining a Christian.

Many people have claimed to have received revelation from God. If God really does keep changing His mind, then we have no way of knowing what the current "truth" really is.

None of this is a problem for Jews. We believe that God doesn't lie or change His mind, so what He told us in the Hebrew bible is still true today.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Such a nice man. But Not Ready thinks you are probably going to hell. And Bossjj thinks you are probably going to heaven (as do Sklanskians). Even though your beliefs are far closer to his. Don't you find that unsettling?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's even more unsettling that people actually value the opinions of others more than what they believe themselves, if they decide to think about it at all.

I believe that the universe was engineered, and the chance of all this happening randomly is less than the chance of God existing.

As far as religion, well... let's just say that anything made by man to represent the will of God is likely to screw something up seriously.

All other things being equal - I'm an athiest. I just happen to believe in God.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since Christianity spent its first 300 years in persecution and martyrdom facing oppression from the governing authority of Roman society, this would not seem to validate your view that religious morality is just a tool to induce conformance to society's rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

The amount of persecution that the early Christians faced is greatly exasgerated by Christians. The supposed martyrdom of some of the jesus' alleged disciples wasn't recorded until a few hundred years after they supposedly happened. They outright lie in claiming that Jews persecuted them, so there are probably some lies against the Romans as well. Sure there was some persecution by Romans, but many just practiced their religion quietly and weren't bothered.

Christianity became the dominant religion because it's what the emperor Constantine decided to convert to. Christianity was a good choice because it told it's followers to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" - to obey the government authorities and just accept their lot in life, because this life on earth isn't as important as the eternal life with God they were promised after death. So unlike the rebellious Jews, they didn't have to worry about Christians rebelling against them.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

In the beginning, Hesiod says, there was Chaos, vast and dark. Then appeared Gaea, "the deep-breasted earth" and finally Eros, "the love which softens hearts", whose influence would preside over the formation of beings...

In their effort to understand where life started from, the Greeks explained all things through the stories of Gods, who were personifications of forces of nature or different aspects of social life.
Those Gods had human frailties (anger, jealousy etc) as well as super human powers.

So you see among the centuries that people always had the need to believe in something (Greek Gods, God etc)as they couldn't explain the origin of their existence.

A Greek

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity was a good choice because it told it's followers to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" - to obey the government authorities and just accept their lot in life, because this life on earth isn't as important as the eternal life with God they were promised after death.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you don't realize that the meaning of this passage is that if you engage in the commerce and monetary system of the empire, then of course you should also participate in the tax part as well. And that, conversely, if you live on a farm and grow your own food, which comes from god, then you definitely don't owe caesar a thing.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

The meaning is subject to interpretation. The fact is that the Christians did not rebel against the Romans, and later European Christians believed in the "divine right of kings." The serfs just accepted it, knowing that they'd get rewarded in heaven. It wasn't so important to change anything here on earth. Christianity worked great for keeping the peasants in line.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Yes it is commonly accepted that most people who consider themselves christians have no idea what christianity is.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]

basically my reasons add up to me concluding that it seems almost certain that the idea of god being the creation of man.


[/ QUOTE ]

Many ideas of god ARE the creation of man. The Bible says "Even Satan comes as an angel of light".

All effective lies are partial truths.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

bossJJ --
"The amount of persecution that the early Christians faced is greatly exasgerated by Christians. The supposed martyrdom of some of the jesus' alleged disciples wasn't recorded until a few hundred years after they supposedly happened. They outright lie in claiming that Jews persecuted them, so there are probably some lies against the Romans as well. Sure there was some persecution by Romans, but many just practiced their religion quietly and weren't bothered. "

This sounds a little to me like saying, the persecution of the Jews in Europe throughout the Middle Ages has been greatly exagerated by Jews. My hunch is that your statement would get a lot of criticism from Historical Scholars.

PairTheBoard

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, 50% is a great starting point from which to read God's word and to pray for greater faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give it a rest.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

HE told me not to.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The amount of persecution that the early Christians faced is greatly exaggerated by Christians. The supposed martyrdom of some of the jesus' alleged disciples wasn't recorded until a few hundred years after they supposedly happened. They outright lie in claiming that Jews persecuted them, so there are probably some lies against the Romans as well. Sure there was some persecution by Romans, but many just practiced their religion quietly and weren't bothered. "

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds a little to me like saying, the persecution of the Jews in Europe throughout the Middle Ages has been greatly exagerated by Jews. My hunch is that your statement would get a lot of criticism from Historical Scholars.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the same thing at all. Most "historical scholars" agree that the persecution of the Jews during the middle ages (e.g. - the inquisition, the massacre of entire Jewish communities during the crusades, laws which prohibited Jews from owning land or practing most professions, etc) really took place. We have non-Jewish as well as Jewish sources, including records of many of the various antisemitic laws and reports from varous priests and church leaders.

While there was some persecution of Christians by the Romans, the amount is greatly exaggerated. There is no record (outside of Christian sources written a few hundred years after the alleged events) that any of Jesus' alleged disciples were martyred. Outside of the Greek Testament (and other Christian writings written even later), there is no evidence that they (jesus' disciples) existed at all. And Christians didn't start claiming they were martyrs until about 200 years after that.

Contrary to evidence, Christians apparently like to believe that they are really a persecuted minority. They think that if Christianity survived under so much persecution, it strengthens their case that Christianity is a true religion from God. However, followers of many different religions have died for their beliefs. That argument would actually prove that Judaism is the true religion, because we are the ones that have actually suffered the most persecution throughout our history.

Even modern American Christians will sometimes claim prejudice against them when non-Christians fight back against Christians who are trying to shove their beliefs down everybody else's throats. They just like to claim that they are persecuted.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Who is right about this subject is irrelevant. Anybody who truly believes all the specifics of any religion is far less likely to cure cancer (even as they WISH more than others that cancer be cured) and thus deserves to have hardships.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

What is relevant David, is that your most recent post here shows that you have a focus that is entirely on this present earthly life, whereas we believers of whatever stripe have one that is on the eternal life to come, compared to which any earthly hardships we suffer now deserved or not, are trivial compared to the infinite gain we hope to receive.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

bossJJ --
"While there was some persecution of Christians by the Romans, the amount is greatly exaggerated. There is no record (outside of Christian sources written a few hundred years after the alleged events) that any of Jesus' alleged disciples were martyred. Outside of the Greek Testament (and other Christian writings written even later), there is no evidence that they (jesus' disciples) existed at all. And Christians didn't start claiming they were martyrs until about 200 years after that. "

So you reiterate. I reiterate my hunch that your statements would meet with much criticism by historical scholars.

PairTheBoard

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

DS --
[ QUOTE ]
Who is right about this subject is irrelevant. Anybody who truly believes all the specifics of any religion is far less likely to cure cancer (even as they WISH more than others that cancer be cured) and thus deserves to have hardships.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your saying that Jews like bossJJ are also not likely to be doing Math or Chemistry or Medical Research?

PairTheBoard

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

"What is relevant David, is that your most recent post here shows that you have a focus that is entirely on this present earthly life, whereas we believers of whatever stripe have one that is on the eternal life to come, compared to which any earthly hardships we suffer now deserved or not, are trivial compared to the infinite gain we hope to receive."

Another terribly wrong post. Because, as I said before I believe that if there is God, he will reward those who seek to find the intricacies of physics and chemistry that he created and will be disgusted by blind sychophants.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Hah

Judaism: The only religion equally loathed by all creeds, races and nations wherever practiced. From pagan Romans, to Medieval Catholics, from Spaniards to Russians, Protestants and Muslims, Arabs to Germans etc. etc. etc...

But the worst enemy being themselves. The most intelligent athiest scientists, mathematicians, politicians are Jews who reject their religion. The most blessed race (which we still see by the disproportionate talents of Jews) has been held back by their false religion.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you reiterate. I reiterate my hunch that your statements would meet with much criticism by historical scholars.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

And I reiterate that you are wrong. How long do want to keep doing this? Why don't you just start providing some evidence for your beliefs? For example, what "evidence" do you have that any of Jesus' alleged disciples were martyred? And from what year is that "evidence"?

At least attempt to give rational responses as to why your beliefs are true, instead of just ignoring most of my posts.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

"But the worst enemy being themselves. The most intelligent athiest scientists, mathematicians, politicians are Jews who reject their religion. The most blessed race (which we still see by the disproportionate talents of Jews) has been held back by their false religion."

I agree with your words completely (notice he included politicians, Pair The Board). In fact I already mentioned something similar in a previous post (the Jews Achilles heel). Very good.

Oh but there is one thing. Though you didn't say it, you seemed to have implied that if these same talented individuals had been brought up with a different religion, and then gone on to get the same education, they would have stayed believers. I think I just may differ with you on that.