Party $500K hand
 

Hello All,

A friend played this hand and disagrees with what I had to say about it, so asked me to post it here.

2nd hour

BB= 200

Hero=2800 in LP
Villian= 4200 in BB

Folded to Hero with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], raises to 500 to go

Folded to BB, flat calls

Flop (1100) comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero lead 800 at the pot, Villain flat calls

Turn (2700) : 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero has 1500 left.
What should Hero do and why?

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

1. I'd probably have pushed the flop.
2. I'd push the turn. A perfect card came, and with stacks this shallow, hard not go go here. If he gets called by a flush draw, so be it. Obviously there are plenty of hands that beat him here that will call. None that he beats are likely to call aside from the flush draw. But there is 2600 in the pot. Push.

Nick

Re: Party $500K hand
 

He needs to push now, and not give a free card to the draw.
Weak Q or smaller pair may pay off as it may just look like continuation play. Plus w/ 1500 behind, I'd rather get my chips in here, than wait. Also this hand is to strong to get away from w/chips invested and chips left.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Easy push.. Villain's range that you beat is huge here.. Either a weak queen to a heart-draw.. and the range that he has you beat is much smaller.. (two hearts, low pocket pair).

One of you two are an idiot.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of you two are an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

If you are going to answer my posts with garbage like this, please refrain from answering my posts in the future.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

I'm guessing that you are the idiot in this mess?

It's okay, we all make mistakes.. I do ridiculously dumb things all the time when I don't think through them. I do dumb things even when I DO think through them.

It's alright, not the end of the world or anything. Relax.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of you two are an idiot.



[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is funny.

OP, yeah push.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. I'd probably have pushed the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't betting 2300 into an 1100 pot a *touch* of an overbet? What worse hand is calling you? What better hand folds?

I like the flop pot bet. I would push the turn. If he has you beat he's getting your money in there one way or another, and if he has a hand like QxJh I don't want him skating to a free river. If you check behind, what do you do on the river? If it's a heart I presume you bail, but if it's a K or J for example? It just gets harder to figure out where you're at. If you didn't want to push, what was your reasoning?

Kings

Re: Party $500K hand
 

I'd push the flop because if you bet 1/3 your stack, and a heart drops on the turn, how sick are you?

Its not about getting called by better hands, its about picking up the pot or making them take improper odds to call.

Nick

Re: Party $500K hand
 

You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts

Re: Party $500K hand
 

YAY!! Dumb idiot who didn't make an obvious push all-in put me on ignore!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Check-Fold TPTK.. YOU ARE THE MAN!!!!!!!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Results/Thoughts
 

He pushed the turn and was called by K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and was drawing dead on the river.

After he argued that he could check behind on the turn and call a medium river bet, and fold to an all in, and still be alive after the hand.

Of course if a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls on the river he's not calling anything.

I agreed with his first play as you see QxX [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , or another pair and a flush draw, or even the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here too many times and that his push was right.

Some of you said "easiest push ever" or something to that effect, but left out reasoning. It was the reasoning I was looking for.

Thanks to those who provided their reasons.

sekrah: care to back track on any of your idiotic statements?

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Push the turn. You are pot committed.

How would you play the hand if you had the Ace of hearts to
go along with your Queen?

If you check the turn, villian will more than likely bet the
river and you might talk yourself into folding. If a heart comes and villian bets you very well might fold the best hand if he bets.

Bruce

Re: Results/Thoughts
 

Woodguy,

If I'm villian and fourth heart comes and I don't have one I will bet around 90% of the time and will expect opponent to
fold most of the time, unless he has big heart. Everyone plays differently, but that't why I might call on river even if fourth heart comes. I avoid this scenario completely if
I push on the turn. Most of the time you will have the best hand on the turn.

Bruce

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Of course, the turn push makes the most sense, given the size of the pot. I think the check, push (call a push) any river isnt too bad.

From the villan's perspective, your flop bet was pure continuation, he very well could be calling the flop b/c (the call is the new raise). There is a decent chance he pushes the river when you are ahead.

Notice, I am not folding this hand. But I might be willing to take a shot to get some more chips, risking quite a bit though. Not a line I will usually take, but if the table is relatively tight middle stacks, it might be worth it to try to get a bullying stack.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. I'd probably have pushed the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

yuck... ok, when a heart comes, you're going to barf a little, but that's only 1/5. and you still might check it down and win when that happens. you really want the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to have a chance to c/r here, as well as a hand like KQ, or TT with no heart.

hmm, i dunno now. it seems like a lot of these hands are going to call anyway if you push, esp because you'll look like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Jx or something with the overbet. maybe it's not a bad play after all.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

With the question posed as it is, I push the turn. I can't believe checking is correct, I can see him having JJ-88 with a heart, a naked A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q. If you're behind I can't see folding to the river bet, so unless you think he's likely to bluff into you on the river I think you move on the turn.

I think I might have pushed on the flop though. I've gotten a lot of calls with overbets lately, people seem to immediately put you on a semi-bluff, and this is a good time to double up. I pushed pre-flop with AA the other night with blinds still at 10/15 there was a rasie to 45 and 2 calls. I was in the SB and pushed 1000. The raiser called me with Ak and I was off to the races.

Re: Results/Thoughts
 

As others have said you are now too pot committed to fold on this hand. You must move in on the turn. If he flopped a big hand well thats the breaks. You must charge him to beat you hand which will be best much more often than not. Don't be results oriented just because the guy had the nuts that time. That is one of the few hands he would play that way. So he either has the nuts or you most likely have the best hand. Which is more likely? The nuts or not the nuts? Anything else that beats your hand he probably moves all in on the flop.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

One of you two are an idiot.


[/ QUOTE ]

the irony!

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Dude, Let's deal.. I'll give you an ounce of my poker talent for an ounce of your killer grammar skills.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

that's really funny given that you've never posted an opinion about a hand that any serious poster in any forum has liked

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

Dude, Let's deal.. I'll give you an ounce of my poker talent for an ounce of your killer grammar skills.

[/ QUOTE ]ur such a troll

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Thanks Man!

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Thanks man!

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hello All,

A friend played this hand and disagrees with what I had to say about it, so asked me to post it here.

2nd hour

BB= 200

Hero=2800 in LP
Villian= 4200 in BB

Folded to Hero with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], raises to 500 to go

Folded to BB, flat calls

Flop (1100) comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero lead 800 at the pot, Villain flat calls

Turn (2700) : 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero has 1500 left.
What should Hero do and why?

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

So the flat call on a single suited flop doesn't scare anyone here? The way I look at it may be a bit different. I think that flat flop call gives you a lot of information, and in pushing the turn you are either not listening to the information given or are just ignoring it. At BEST, he has something like KQ with no hearts... not very likely, in my opinion. Not putting him on an overcard heart at the very least is a mistake. OK, I would NOT put him on a made flush, but it is more likely than the KQ non-heart hand. So, on the turn, if you push he's getting about 3:1 on a call. If he has something like K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] then he has plenty of odds to call. Personally, I check the turn or make a small blocking bet, depending on what I know of the player. If he pushes, I call, but don't like it. Again, the odds would be 4200:1500 or almost 3:1. With an overcard heart and no pair he'd consider himself to have 12 outs, giving him odds to call the allin. Pushing the turn gives good odds to call to any hand you don't want calling, so I don't like it. I'm hoping to see the river cheap and I'm willing to put all my chips in on the river if it isn't a King or heart. On a King or heart, I probably show how weak I am and check/fold. Anything else, I lose all my chips to the made flush.

In any case, if there is one thing I learned on these boards is to put yourself in your opponent's shoes... So, as the villain, if you have a made flush on that flop, and are bet into, how are you planning on playing it? I'd like to believe that most of us aren't going to push it all in there and possibly scare out a Queen. We'll release some more rope for the Hero to hang himself. My question to all who are saying to push the turn: What are you putting him on after the flop call, and what are you hoping to get out of the turn push? The goal is to get opponents to make mistakes. A made flush would make a mistake checking behind or flat calling a small blocking bet. A K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] can only make a mistake by folding here. Would you fold to this bet with this hand?

Re: Party $500K hand
 

bah someone beat me to it

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, Let's deal.. I'll give you an ounce of my poker talent for an ounce of your killer grammar skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the same poker skill that allows you to dominate the $0.01/$0.02 08 tables at UB as you crow about here.

I particularly like this line:

[ QUOTE ]
UB usually has 4-5 tables going of .01/.02 and they are incredibly weak..


[/ QUOTE ]

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I couldn't resist.

Ok, back to ignore you go.....

And yes, I consider the 4 mintues I spent digging that up well worth it.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

I still think the pot size and his possible range dictate a turn push.

I'm not sure I can put him on a made flush (unless its the nut) with a flat call, but I'm thinking that K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Qx checkraises this flop.......mind you he doesn't have a the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and may want to see a blank come off the turn before commiting the rest of his chips.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless some fool quotes the ignored user and uses it in his post. I've had sekrah on ignore since the first post of his I read, but people insist on quoting his retardedness. I don't get it.

</hijack>

Drink More,
RedRum

Re: Party $500K hand
 

ok.... now can you dedicate 4 minutes on the push vs. bet issue on the flop? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Party $500K hand
 

I don't like overbets unless I have a very good hand.
Like David Ross mentioned, everyone loves to call your overbet bluff, so its best done with the current nuts or a reasonable facimile.

If K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] calls my push we're 50/50, and that's the bottom range of what I would think would call a flop push. Assuming the range of calling hands are pairs w/ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], sets and made flushes.

I know I would look at a flop push as "look ma, no hearts!" (which is why pushing the nut flush is fun if you have more than 1 opponent in the pot.)

So doing air math I'm not convinced that 1100 chips is enough dead $$$ to make up for being a dog to his calling range, but I think its really close.

Any hand that calls your push is also calliing/raising your continuation bet, and you can push the turn on any non heart.

Hero in this hand cannot bust the villian, so the push may only have margianlly more value than a normal continuation bet.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

Yo D,

I’d have leaned toward check-calling the turn

You are early in the tourney, so the only hands you want to fold here are ones that have more than about 26% equity in the pot (those needing to call 1500 into the 2700+1500 pot you create by pushing), which means they have a heart draw plus something like a gutshot or pair.

But any hand that calls the flop here will almost certainly bet if you check the turn. And there a number of hands like a “Kantor” (pure bluff), single heart like Jh Tc, or pairs with a heart like 8h 8d that you want to put money in here but will likely fold if you bet.

Basically, I don’t think there are many hands that you want to fold that actually will fold if you bet, since they’d be getting close to 3:1 to 1 on a call. Whereas there are a bunch of hands that will put money (incorrectly) in if you check but will fold if you bet.

And I’d probably have bet less on the flop maybe 500. If he’s got a good singleton heart he’s calling anyway, and this way I can 1) still charge him to draw on the flop, 2) get away cheaper if a heart hits, and 3) offer him worse odds on the turn so can generate better fold equity cause you offer 2:1 instead of 3:1

Just my 2 cents

--Greg

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, I don’t think there are many hands that you want to fold that actually will fold if you bet, since they’d be getting close to 3:1 to 1 on a call. Whereas there are a bunch of hands that will put money (incorrectly) in if you check but will fold if you bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great point.

Nice of you to tear yourself away from the O8 to drop in too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Hero has position in this hand btw.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the flat call on a single suited flop doesn't scare anyone here? The way I look at it may be a bit different. I think that flat flop call gives you a lot of information, and in pushing the turn you are either not listening to the information given or are just ignoring it. At BEST, he has something like KQ with no hearts... not very likely, in my opinion. Not putting him on an overcard heart at the very least is a mistake. OK, I would NOT put him on a made flush, but it is more likely than the KQ non-heart hand. So, on the turn, if you push he's getting about 3:1 on a call. If he has something like K Q then he has plenty of odds to call. Personally, I check the turn or make a small blocking bet, depending on what I know of the player. If he pushes, I call, but don't like it. Again, the odds would be 4200:1500 or almost 3:1. With an overcard heart and no pair he'd consider himself to have 12 outs, giving him odds to call the allin. Pushing the turn gives good odds to call to any hand you don't want calling, so I don't like it. I'm hoping to see the river cheap and I'm willing to put all my chips in on the river if it isn't a King or heart. On a King or heart, I probably show how weak I am and check/fold. Anything else, I lose all my chips to the made flush.

In any case, if there is one thing I learned on these boards is to put yourself in your opponent's shoes... So, as the villain, if you have a made flush on that flop, and are bet into, how are you planning on playing it? I'd like to believe that most of us aren't going to push it all in there and possibly scare out a Queen. We'll release some more rope for the Hero to hang himself. My question to all who are saying to push the turn: What are you putting him on after the flop call, and what are you hoping to get out of the turn push? The goal is to get opponents to make mistakes. A made flush would make a mistake checking behind or flat calling a small blocking bet. A KQ can only make a mistake by folding here. Would you fold to this bet with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zoot,

My buddy in this hand is also one of my employees, and he just read your post over my shoulder and said "That's what I was talking about", so thanks from him.


What do you think of this thought.....If he doesn't have the nut flush, a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on river may keep him from betting out (if he goes into check/call mode) and may help you get to showdown even cheaper, so that's another reason to check the turn.....

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Party $500K hand
 

I sometimes check the flop here intending a turn shove.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice of you to tear yourself away from the O8 to drop in too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Hero has position in this hand btw.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

He has position? I was waiting for the dealer to give me my other two cards before I bet..... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Party $500K hand
 

I think the flop bet is fine. You still have enough behind you to push the turn and prevent someone from getting the right price to draw to the flush. At this point in the tournament I don't see folding this hand. I'd push the turn. His stack is just too short and I think he's ahead of the range of hands I'd put villain on.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts

[/ QUOTE ]
Remember Zaxx19? Very similar.

Re: Party $500K hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]