A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

I'm holding 88 in a live 40-80 game in EP. UTG folds, I raise, all fold to cutoff who calls and everyone else folds. Cutoff is a good player that is somewhat decent postflop.

Flop is A-9-2. I bet, he calls.

Turn is a 7. I bet, he calls.

River is 5.

What's my plan now?

Thanks

Lawrence

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm holding 88 in a live 40-80 game in EP. UTG folds, I raise, all fold to cutoff who calls and everyone else folds. Cutoff is a good player that is somewhat decent postflop.

Flop is A-9-2. I bet, he calls.

Turn is a 7. I bet, he calls.

River is 5.

What's my plan now?

Thanks

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]first, CO is not a good player. the only hand a good player could possibly play this way would be KK...
WRT to your Q, easy check/fold on the river.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

I'm pretty sure checkfold is the way to go.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

...err, I think Co would 3 bet KK not coldcall. Actually it's a little fishy that a good player would coldcall anything here.

I don't like open raising with 88 or 99 EP. If anyone comes in behind you your out of position with a hand that's difficult to play. I just limp in here. I save 88 and 99 for isolation plays against 1 limper or 1 LAG raiser. Anyhow, it sound like you're up against something like AQs, AJs, ATs. I'd check fold the river.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

If you're gonna make a move on this sort of board with this sort of opponent, I prefer a turn check-raise.

As far as your river, looks like a pretty obvious check-fold. Good players aren't putting in 1.5 BBs on this dry of a board without putting 2.5 if need be to get to showdown.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

i just read poker bob's post, and he also raised 88 from EP. This is not a normative play for me. Can someone explain to me when such a play with lower pairs might be correct?


(My guess is that you want to get rid of overcards and try to get heads up. This would be more likely in tighter games. Should this type of raise be reserved only for pretty tight, yet passive games?)

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

In almost any size limit games I play in, if I am first in after UTG and have any pocket pair 77 and up, I will raise.

The only condition where I usually limp is if it's extremely loose pre-flop and my raise won't thin the field down much, then I might limp pocket pairs all pocket pairs lower than 88, but still raise 99 pairs and up if I am first in.

Lawrence

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

Okay. Why 77 and up, though, in most games? To thin the field, I understand. But why do you draw the line at 77? My preflop knowledge is limited mainly to SSHE and THFAP, which would not recommend raising with pairs that low in ep. Can you pleasee elaborate? Thanks.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

Check fold sounds right. That board is real dry. I cant think of much you are ahead of when he calls the turn. Make it A 9 10 with a flush draw and I'm auto calling the river. But in your spot, since he really cant have a busted draw, would probably fold a smaller PP on the turn, and shouldnt feel the need to bet a smaller PP on the river it looks pretty hopeless. Agaist the real straight forward types I'll check fold the turn, although I lean towards betting agaist an unknown.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

If you are often find in this position against decent players, it may be because you are playing too aggressively in the wrong spots, and they are letting you bet their hand for them when they feel they have you beat.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a normative play for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://grouse.net.au/~sirrobin/inconceivable.jpg

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
the only hand a good player could possibly play this way would be KK...


[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't close to being right at all.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Why 77 and up, though, in most games? To thin the field, I understand. But why do you draw the line at 77?

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, you have to draw the line somewhere. Its usually a close decision between the adjacent hands, but the line still has to go somewhere.

At first glance, raising 77 UTG might not seem a good idea. You'll thin the field but only get called or raised by hands against which you're about even money (a couple of big cards) or hands that dominate you (bigger pocket pairs). But there are considerations beyond that.

First, in tight games, a UTG raise has a fair chance of stealing the blinds which is a decent result for 77. Alternatively it may end up played only against the blinds, in which case you will have position for the rest of the hand.

Second, it disguises other UTG raises without giving up too much EV. Instead of folding to subsequent UTG raises, people are more inclined to three bet you, which is good news when you're holding AA.

Finally if it all goes wrong, you can always spike a set!

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
first, CO is not a good player. the only hand a good player could possibly play this way would be KK...
WRT to your Q, easy check/fold on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...

Any player with 1/2 a clue of how to play post flop would just call here with any hand he cold called with that contains an Ace. Villian knows OP i'm sure, and knows his standards. Villian, then, with something like AJs or AQs, stands to gain NOTHING by raising this flop or turn, as he's going to get 3 bet by AK, and KK-88 will insta-muck.

This is one of those times where calling is correct, at least until the river, to let the guy with 2 outs blow of a couple of bets.

lf

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a normative play for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

normative

adj 1: relating to or dealing with norms; "normative discipline"; "normative samples" 2: giving directives or rules; "prescriptive grammar is concerned with norms of or rules for correct usage" [syn: prescriptive] [ant: descriptive] 3: based on or prescribing a norm or standard; "normative grammar" [syn: prescriptive] 4: dealing with or based on norms; "a normative judgment"

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

still can't use it that way i think.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first, CO is not a good player. the only hand a good player could possibly play this way would be KK...
WRT to your Q, easy check/fold on the river

[/ QUOTE ]



Any player with 1/2 a clue of how to play post flop would just call here with any hand he cold called with that contains an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]im implying that coldcalling here with A/face sucks. i see ppl play AQ like this all the time. it sucks.
also if a player coldcall AQ PF, flop play is to raise, there are very basic FTOP and metagame reasons for this...
what is the PFR going to think when you call on this A92r flop(assuming they know you are solid/tight PF).

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first, CO is not a good player. the only hand a good player could possibly play this way would be KK...
WRT to your Q, easy check/fold on the river

[/ QUOTE ]



Any player with 1/2 a clue of how to play post flop would just call here with any hand he cold called with that contains an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]im implying that coldcalling here with A/face sucks. i see ppl play AQ like this all the time. it sucks.
also if a player coldcall AQ PF, flop play is to raise, there are very basic FTOP and metagame reasons for this...
what is the PFR going to think when you call on this A92r flop(assuming they know you are solid/tight PF).

[/ QUOTE ]

PFR isn't going to know what to think, isn't that the goal? I understand not liking a cold-call w/ AQo in this spot, but how about AQs, or AJs, or AKs. Its a trap, and a good one, especially if the PFR is willing to bet twice with a hand that can't come close to top pair.

lf

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

FWIW I think this in a lot of ways is a math problem that involves making accurate estimates of what your opponent might have. I haven't worked out various scenarios myself at this point but it seems that estimating your opponents range of hands pre-flop would help you narrow down your opponents possible holdings by the river. This does look like a situation where you have some serious reverse implied odds FWIW.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check fold sounds right. That board is real dry. I cant think of much you are ahead of when he calls the turn. Make it A 9 10 with a flush draw and I'm auto calling the river. But in your spot, since he really cant have a busted draw, would probably fold a smaller PP on the turn, and shouldnt feel the need to bet a smaller PP on the river it looks pretty hopeless. Agaist the real straight forward types I'll check fold the turn, although I lean towards betting agaist an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve's analysis is pretty much perfect.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
In almost any size limit games I play in, if I am first in after UTG and have any pocket pair 77 and up, I will raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a pretty strong statement. No conditions, no cautions. First in with a pair above 77...RAISE IT UP!!!

Lawrence Ng maybe you need a new game plan. You don't know what to do when faced with a simple situation (2 over cards flop)that happens regularly in holdem. This is really basic.

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Why 77 and up, though, in most games? To thin the field, I understand. But why do you draw the line at 77? My preflop knowledge is limited mainly to SSHE and THFAP, which would not recommend raising with pairs that low in ep. Can you pleasee elaborate? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess to put it simply, I feel confident enough in my post flop play to set such raising standards.

Lawrence

Re: A situation I\'m often faced with..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thats a pretty strong statement. No conditions, no cautions. First in with a pair above 77...RAISE IT UP!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think it's truly that big of a mistake to raise in EP with a mid sized pair? What's the cost of that mistake in the long run? What if that mistake were compensated with good post flop play? Then would it still be a mistake?

Please help me with "the basics" here...

Lawrence