Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

Do you think such a petition would work?

Would you support it?

fim

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

Wasn't there a thread about this in the past week? And most everyone agreed that it's good to let people buy in short because they are almost always donks that don't stand a chance.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

I would definitely support this... but I have contacted them about this already and they said they have no intention of doing this, but maybe with alot of people saying this it would have more of a chance.

My biggest problem is the people who short buy and leave after a win and sit down again. If they could solve this problem, I wouldn't mind as much about the short buy.

And I do think that the people who use this strategy are not good poker players, but not necessarily donks. There are alot of people who do this and are complete rocks, ie: 10%/5%, and get paid off. They are scared money and by leaving when they win, they limit their loss (and my potential win later [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ).

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

i dont mind it at all, and no, it won't work.


edit i mean i dont mind people buying in short

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit i mean i dont mind people buying in short

[/ QUOTE ]i doubt a petition like this stands too much a chance, but id absolutely sign... i hate ppl buying in short. i cant imagine why you wouldnt mind this.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

well people buying in short, in my experience, are always losers.

that said, i konw that good players will win faster if the short stacks are not there. i guess youre right, it just doesnt bug me.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

I wouldn't support it. The few people that do this and know how to play that stack size correctly pales in comparison to the number of really inexperienced weak players who do this. Not everyone likes to play deep stack poker and if they want to play pair poker for a smaller stack that's their business, I don't see a real argument as to why someone can't buyin for 40 bb other than you don't like it.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

Look at it as an opportunity to learn how to play correctly with short stacks at your table. Don't hate the playa...

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

probably most people don't care, I love when people buy in to my games short. people buying in short pretty much fall in two categories:
1) fish
2) people who are playing a short stack to play tight and hope nobody notices and gives them action.

since we all know how to deal with both these styles and it's easy to tell them apart I don't think it's really a big deal.

--turnipmonster

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look at it as an opportunity to learn how to play correctly with short stacks at your table. Don't hate the playa...

[/ QUOTE ]

If i have 200BB's covered on my right and a 20BB monkey on my left i am forced to sacrifice +EV opportunities to facilitate their desire to play no-thinkum poker. this situation cannot be played "correctly" against the shortstack as the real proper strategy involves maximizing the sum of my EV's against both players, which almost always means sacrificing some optimal gameplay to the damn shortstack.

fim

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at it as an opportunity to learn how to play correctly with short stacks at your table. Don't hate the playa...

[/ QUOTE ]

If i have 200BB's covered on my right and a 20BB monkey on my left i am forced to sacrifice +EV opportunities to facilitate their desire to play no-thinkum poker. this situation cannot be played "correctly" against the shortstack as the real proper strategy involves maximizing the sum of my EV's against both players, which almost always means sacrificing some optimal gameplay to the damn shortstack.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, at least its +EV for one of us.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

Sorry but that's not a good enough argument. Say Mahatma sits down on your left. That probably drops your EV too so should he be banned because he's a better player?

Yes a short stack alters the correct play just like a hyper aggro player screws with the table dynamic too but pushing you out of your comfort zone there isn't a good reason why they shouldn't be able do this.

Are you advocating that when someone loses their way down to under 50bb they should be kicked?

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but that's not a good enough argument. Say Mahatma sits down on your left. That probably drops your EV too so should he be banned because he's a better player?

Yes a short stack alters the correct play just like a hyper aggro player screws with the table dynamic too but other than pushing you out of your comfort zone there isn't a good reason why they shouldn't be able do this.

Are you advocating that when someone loses their way down to under 50bb they should be kicked?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a huge difference between the analogy you made and my argument. Mahatma is a more experienced player who is obviously better than me. he wins because he is better at playing poker than i am. these players lose less because they have read a book which, admittedly, exploits a mistake online sites made when setting up their games.

As for kicking someone, that's silly. there is a reason B&amp;M poker rooms allow you to buyin full and then do short buys should you desire. you should be allowed one short buy and that's it.

another argument is that some fish are playing way way above their BR's here. a lot of players are buying in for 20 on a 200 BR at a NL 100 game because they can't stand the "bad players" at 25NL. it gives them tons of variance, but ultimately their money would last longer and get raked more at 25.

fim

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

Fair enough, if you want to discuss it on a serious level as a distortion of the game then ok, but the fact it negatively impacts your EV shouldn't be relevant when considering whether it should be treated as legal or not, fairness to all players should be the standard for that.

I fail to see how less of their $ going to rake is a negative, the more of it that goes to PP, the less there is for all the players, those bottom feeders at 25nl wind up sending an awful lot of money up the poker food chain but once it goes to PP in rake it's gone for good.

I haven't been on the PP 10/20 tables for a month or so, how widespread is this becoming? I read somewhere there was a book that advocated this strategy but as little as a month or two ago there were 3 or 4 fish short buying for every 'squirrel' playing tight short stack pair poker.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

I agree with the (I think) majority in that for every irritating shortstacker who knows how to play, there are 4 donks.

But I do think its lame nonetheless.

As with disconnect protect, perhaps a good direction to go in, in my opinion, is have some tables with max 50bb buy-in instead of 25?

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but that's not a good enough argument. Say Mahatma sits down on your left. That probably drops your EV too so should he be banned because he's a better player?

Yes a short stack alters the correct play just like a hyper aggro player screws with the table dynamic too but other than pushing you out of your comfort zone there isn't a good reason why they shouldn't be able do this.

Are you advocating that when someone loses their way down to under 50bb they should be kicked?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a huge difference between the analogy you made and my argument. Mahatma is a more experienced player who is obviously better than me. he wins because he is better at playing poker than i am. these players lose less because they have read a book which, admittedly, exploits a mistake online sites made when setting up their games.

As for kicking someone, that's silly. there is a reason B&amp;M poker rooms allow you to buyin full and then do short buys should you desire. you should be allowed one short buy and that's it.

another argument is that some fish are playing way way above their BR's here. a lot of players are buying in for 20 on a 200 BR at a NL 100 game because they can't stand the "bad players" at 25NL. it gives them tons of variance, but ultimately their money would last longer and get raked more at 25.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the minimum buy in at limit tables?

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

A more realistic solution will be to have 2 categories of games. One with min buy in, one without. It's reasonable to want to play short for those attracted to tourney style NL but it shouldn't spoil deep stack games.

James

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's reasonable to want to play short for those attracted to tourney style NL but it shouldn't spoil deep stack games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play SnGs.

Honestly, that is exactly what these guys are doing, is turning the games into a SnG when they play. Like I said before, the main problem I have is when players buy in short and then leave (after a win) and re buy. If they would limit the time that they can "re-sit" to like 2hrs, I wouldn't mind as much.

Alot of people say "what's wrong with buying in for 40-50BBs?" and I say nothing. I don't really mind a player buying in for 40-50BBs (you can still - for the most part - play regular poker against these guys), but when they buy in for 20BBs and then double up and leave and re-sit, I think that is cheap and an exploitation of the sites' flaws.

It does affect the game. I mean if a short stack raises 5xBBs with 20BB behind, it's basically push or fold, and that's a SnG.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
A more realistic solution will be to have 2 categories of games. One with min buy in, one without. It's reasonable to want to play short for those attracted to tourney style NL but it shouldn't spoil deep stack games.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus it's a way for lower limit players to get their feet wet at the higher stakes games. Some will make it and some will bust/drop back down. However they may never try if they don't have a chance to buy in short at first to get their feet wet, or give up on higher stakes after loosing a stack or two. Your never going to have a chance to bust me if I don't have the option of buying in short and playing that way to get comfortable in bigger games than I am used to playing.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
probably most people don't care, I love when people buy in to my games short. people buying in short pretty much fall in two categories:
1) fish
2) people who are playing a short stack to play tight and hope nobody notices and gives them action.

since we all know how to deal with both these styles and it's easy to tell them apart I don't think it's really a big deal.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

i couldnt agree more.

there are several short buyers at the big party games who i love to see at the table. they usually play kinda bad.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

if you adjust correctly you have a big advantage over people that play this kind of short stack strategy, particularly if pots are mostly heads up. the big disadvantage is in multiway pots, where you sometimes have to sacrifice main pot EV in exchange for side pot EV.

--turnipmonster

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

exactly.

i hate it when im playing heads up and some dick sits with 20BB's.

[ QUOTE ]
A more realistic solution will be to have 2 categories of games. One with min buy in, one without. It's reasonable to want to play short for those attracted to tourney style NL but it shouldn't spoil deep stack games.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

It probably wouldnt work. In best scenario they might open few separate tables with 50bb min but leave the rest as they are. I would certainly support it because I hate shallow stack poker.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

I agree with OP. At 2K I really just want to play with deep stacks only. Shorts just get in the way. End of story.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think such a petition would work?

Would you support it?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

double up then triple up and make everyone the short stack

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

can't see how party trying a few tables like this would hurt..

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
probably most people don't care, I love when people buy in to my games short. people buying in short pretty much fall in two categories:
1) fish
2) people who are playing a short stack to play tight and hope nobody notices and gives them action.

since we all know how to deal with both these styles and it's easy to tell them apart I don't think it's really a big deal.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

i couldnt agree more.

there are several short buyers at the big party games who i love to see at the table. they usually play kinda bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem is that there are far too many players out there that don't seem to grasp #2. Sure there are a lot of downsides to bringing a shortstack to a table, but when you can get a lot of action on your premium starting hands, it makes it highly profitable. You have to pass up on calling certain draws, but you nearly always get paid off more in the end making it much more profitable to buy in for $50 to a $400NL game than $50 to a 50NL game. Refill to 50 everytime you drop down, and once you double up, leave and come back with 50. I know it may be an annoyance to some players, but it will continue to be an effective strategy as long as big stacked players keep giving them more action than they deserve. Somehow someone raising $15 out of a $50 stack does not raise suspicion to someone used to such raises. I don't have any hand histories available to illustrate this, but I'll give an example. The last time i was dealt pocket aces at a $50 table with my stack around $75, i raised to $2 preflop and it got folded around. Last time i got dealt AA when i had a stack of $50 in a higher limit game, I raised $10 preflop and got four callers, two of whom evewntually showed 56s and JQos. I tripled up. The preflop calls alone equal nearly a double up for me, and yet players didn't think twice to call with marginal hands. Whenever u can get this much action when your raising 1/5 of your stack preflop, I'm a happy man.

PS- I do agree that most of the time I see a short stack sit at the table I sigh waiting for the inevitable all-in blind steal and run or something similar. And it can be annoying to have to adjust in a 200NL game to play the $400 stack and the 50$ stack, but its something that must be done. Party could of course change a lot to make everything optimal conditions, but your remembering all the times they doubled and dashed and forgetting how many times they lost it all first or second hand then slinked away in shame.

XXXNoahXXX

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

I don't think anyone is arguing that many players have problems adjusting to short stacks. most people here know how to deal with short stacks correctly though, and as such don't really mind having them at the table. they pay the blinds like everyone else after all.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is arguing that many players have problems adjusting to short stacks. most people here know how to deal with short stacks correctly though, and as such don't really mind having them at the table. they pay the blinds like everyone else after all.

[/ QUOTE ]its that i dont want to effing adjust!
ex. 10/Q NLH. solid player(6K) opens in MP for 75, im next(cover) and reraise to 230, gay shortstack moves in behind us for 405 (wonderful)... everyone else folds, i get to call.
either im forced to quit playing hard at MP or i give something up to the shorties... if i adjust, hell know im only raising/reraising w/ premium hands... great. i dont see why buying in to a NLH game for less than 100BBs should be legal.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
its that i dont want to effing adjust!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the B&amp;M pros are all saying that about all the online players when the onliners play B&amp;M.

It is what it is... adjust or quit. This petition isn't going to work. What's more likely to work is B&amp;M changing their buyin policy to reflect online, because short buyins keep the fish coming, and games dry up without a constant supply of new fish. That's what happened to B&amp;M cash NL games for a long time before the current poker boom.

-ptmusic

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's more likely to work is B&amp;M changing their buyin policy to reflect online,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is wrong

[ QUOTE ]
That's what happened to B&amp;M cash NL games for a long time before the current poker boom.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is mostly wrong too

fim

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

No, buying in short is a part of the game and strategy.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
ex. 10/Q NLH.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it.

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's more likely to work is B&amp;M changing their buyin policy to reflect online,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have direct influence over the strategic planning of online or B&amp;M poker rooms? How can you say I'm "wrong"? I'm just making a guess. I suppose I would even suggest it; it seems like it works for the bottom line of online poker rooms.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what happened to B&amp;M cash NL games for a long time before the current poker boom.

[/ QUOTE ]



this is mostly wrong too

[/ QUOTE ]

I said that NL cash games were killed for many years because a long time ago the good players kept taking the fishes money, and the action dried up. I learned this from reading posts here, including those from our esteemed 2+2 leaders.

-ptmusic

Re: Petition to Remove <50bb Buyins From Party Skins (xposted)
 

Interesting Comment by Barry Greenstein:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...334&amp;Forum=,All_Forums,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit =25&amp;Main=3029808&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&am p;Name=2460&amp;daterange=&amp;newerval=&amp;newer type=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#P ost3035334