Angle shooting while checking?
 

Usually play online, so this might be a stupid question:

A guy in the 5-10 game at the casino was doing this and someone complained. The poker room staff did not find a problem with this, but I am curious as to what everyone thinks. When this guy would act on his hand, he would always have chips in his hand. (Tapping the chips on the felt without releasing them from his hand). When he checked, he would use the hand with the chips, put his hand over the line, the chips would touch the felt, and he would pause and then say check. He did this while looking at the other players in the hand. He would bet the same way, except after his hand touched the felt (the same motion he made when checking) he would release the chips.

Like I said, the management let him keep doing this. It didn't affect me, but it did seem to be obvious angle shooting and I thought the guy was a total idiot. He was obviously trying to get a read on his competition when he was going to either bet or check. Is there a rule against this at most casinos?

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

What card room were you playing at? Chips should not cross the bet line if they are not going in the pot.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

Potawatomi in Milwaukee, WI

And not that it matters, but I got the stakes wrong. It was a 10-20 and the guy was a regular. Maybe that's why they put up with it? (Not that they should have.)

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

Line or no line if he makes a forward move with chips he should be forced to bet or raise.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Usually play online, so this might be a stupid question:

A guy in the 5-10 game at the casino was doing this and someone complained. The poker room staff did not find a problem with this, but I am curious as to what everyone thinks. When this guy would act on his hand, he would always have chips in his hand. (Tapping the chips on the felt without releasing them from his hand). When he checked, he would use the hand with the chips, put his hand over the line, the chips would touch the felt, and he would pause and then say check. He did this while looking at the other players in the hand. He would bet the same way, except after his hand touched the felt (the same motion he made when checking) he would release the chips.

Like I said, the management let him keep doing this. It didn't affect me, but it did seem to be obvious angle shooting and I thought the guy was a total idiot. He was obviously trying to get a read on his competition when he was going to either bet or check. Is there a rule against this at most casinos?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my cardroom, this is a bet and it would be enforced. he is angle shooting and I wanted him murdered! The betting line most times has nothing to do w/ a bet, it is there so people push thier bets and mucked cards far enough out so the dealer can reach them. If the handled chips are brought passed his cards and then are brought down to the felt this is a bet.

prepare the guillotine we gots an angle shooter to excute!

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

I've noticed this a bunch with some of the worse regulars at Artichoke Joe's in northern CA. Last session I played with a guy (playing 6/12) who must've been about 80% VPIP / 20% PFR / 0.75 AF who did this (or something very close to it) constantly -- his move was to pick up a stack of chips (if he didn't have them in his hand already), raise it about eight inches above the felt, look straight at whomever he deemed to be the biggest threat in the hand, and then as he was lowering his hand he'd say "check" if he was deciding against betting (which, postflop, was pretty much every time). Of course, since his dropping hand was aimed out in front of him, the motion for betting & checking was exactly the same.

Pretty quickly, the aware players at the table (both of us) just put our hands on our chips every time he started the act, so he presumably read us for strength and checked. And then decided he couldn't trust his read and called us down if we did indeed bet.

It was pretty comical. Profitable, though.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

Why have a line if this stuff is allowed? In most rooms there is a forward motion rule or a betting line. The forward motion rule can get a little messy but the line is pretty straight forward. I guess your cardroom doesn't have a forward motion rule when holding chips and the line is just for show.

If he's pretty consistent with this action I imagine it's pretty easily exploitable to your favor.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

How about this: you take a stack, go out past the bet line and drop only some of the chips from the bottom of the stack and take the rest of the stack back. Should you be required to bet the whole stack?

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he's pretty consistent with this action I imagine it's pretty easily exploitable to your favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I wasn't the one complaining about it, although I silently agreed with the person who did. It was more just a matter of the guy being a jerk, but I didn't understand why the poker room allowed it.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

If there is a betting line, in most casinos, this is a BET. It's certainly very poor ettiquette at the least. In casinos without a betting line, it's usually such a grey area that it's ignored by virtually all dealers, floors, and players.

al

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

If you decribed the situation without so much description, you might get different results. I don't see a problem with this unless he is literally not releasing his chips for more than a second while they are actually touching the table. Here in Vegas there isn't an enforcable line, or a foward motion rule. There are plenty of people that keep chips in their hand and either check with it, release half of them for a call, or enough for a raise.

The difference is your decribing a play that slow downs the game (I'm assuming) and I am describing a type of player that usually plays quickly. Its hard to make a rule that comes down to a time issue (ie 1 second or more), so it has got to be concrete.

Me, personally, I think the less rules the better at a poker table. Why? Things just run smoother if the less the dealer has to intervene, or people aren't getting up b/c they can't awnser their phone at the table, people don't argue about nitpicky details, etc.

If it were me I would just probably take it upon myself to tell him to, "hurry the [censored] up (if he is taking an excessive amount of time) and its not cute to do that everytime you check."

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

At the casino I play at in the 2/5 NL game, what you said is exactly true. Any chips that cross the betting line are going in the pot, unless you declare the amount of the bet beforehand.

I think it's a good rule.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

This is entirely casino-dependant. In MOST rooms this is a bet. In some rooms they enforce this rule tightly (Mandalay), in others they sometimes enforce, sometimes don't. At Canterbury, this is done all the time, and is not considered a bet.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

That's laughable, I have seen it plenty though, all depends on the rules of the room.

Definitely use it again him, look weak when strong and strong when weak when he goes to bet, LOL!

I might even give him a subtle middle finger gesture after a while when he starts looking at me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

>TW<

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is entirely casino-dependant. In MOST rooms this is a bet. In some rooms they enforce this rule tightly (Mandalay), in others they sometimes enforce, sometimes don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought of Mandalay Bay immediately upon reading the OP. The very first time I sat down at (IIRC) the $4/$8 game there a few years ago, the dealer warned me that tapping a hand with chips in it would be considered a bet. I wonder if they had some problem with a nit infestation.

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my cardroom, this is a bet and it would be enforced. he is angle shooting and I wanted him murdered! The betting line most times has nothing to do w/ a bet, it is there so people push thier bets and mucked cards far enough out so the dealer can reach them. If the handled chips are brought passed his cards and then are brought down to the felt this is a bet.

prepare the guillotine we gots an angle shooter to excute!

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this to be a touch harsh.

To answer the original post, most places I've played won't enforce the "forward motion with chips is a bet" rule unless someone complains. If someone complains, the player is usually warned about it, and it's enforced the next time he does it.

-McGee

Re: Angle shooting while checking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there is a betting line, in most casinos, this is a BET. It's certainly very poor ettiquette at the least. In casinos without a betting line, it's usually such a grey area that it's ignored by virtually all dealers, floors, and players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, it's not a betting line. See other posts here, and review numerous posts from other threads. It's a "casino liability line" or, the line which cards and chips should be pushed past so the dealer doesn't have to reach too far.

The forward motion rule is part of RRP, and therefore followed in most casinos. One of the key points about the forward motion rule is that is must cause action behind the player -- otherwise, it can pretty much be retracted.

You're right, dealers usually ignore it as do players, but this is because it is usually not a big deal, just a bad habit of some players. I'd say most players that do it aren't taking a shot, but some certainly are. And in that case when someone objects, then the floormen (at least those in the Los Angeles area) are aware of the rule and enforce it properly.

When someone uses it as a shot, it's so annoying to me, I get distracted. If you're lucky enough to be on their left, you wait until you have a nice hand, and just say "raise" the moment they start their forward motion.

The floor will agree with you every time in that situation. It was a forward motion, and it caused action behind the player. Next case.

Sparks