Quick one.
 

Loose, mostly passive, good B&M game. Usually 6-7 to the flop for 1 bet, or 4-5 for a raise.

A note about the BB in this hand: In the hour and a half I've been at the table he has been doing a lot of calling, and has burned through a rack and a half. I haven't seen him raise once.

I open limp UTG+2 with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 more limpers and both blinds call.

6 players

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Sb checks, BB checks, I bet, 1 MP caller, BB calls.

3 players

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, MP folds, BB raises, I 3-bet, BB 4-bets, I call.

2 players

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets, I turbo muck.

Comments?

Re: Quick one.
 

Although I don't think you're ahead on this river very much, I still think you have to pay it off because you've inflated the pot so much on the turn. From these types of players, one raise is about the same as a 4-bet, that is, in order for them to raise they'd need the same type of hand to 4-bet with. I think against this player I'd just call it down unless I improved after the turn raise and hope to see J7 or J6.

Re: Quick one.
 

unless you have seen him specifically play two pair passively before, you have to call the river.

Re: Quick one.
 

Why would you call the last raise on the turn but muck the river?

Folding the river for one bet getting 13.5:1 with a set on a relatively innocuous board? Come on. I'd have to see someone not raise in 150 hours (vs your 1.5) to do that.

Re: Quick one.
 

This fold sucks, I call here everytime. If you're not willing to call this down, don't 3bet the turn.

Re: Quick one.
 

You haven't been playing with this guy anywhere near long enough to make this kind of laydown. Even against a player you knew very well, this would rarely be a good laydown. If you think you need to make this kind of laydown, you should do it on the turn, not the river.

Re: Quick one.
 

i hate the river.

Re: Quick one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you call the last raise on the turn but muck the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was pretty sure he had turned a straight, and I wanted to see if I could fill up.

Re: Quick one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
From these types of players, one raise is about the same as a 4-bet, that is, in order for them to raise they'd need the same type of hand to 4-bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. So how often do you think that type of player 4-bets the turn with just two pair (about 7th nut)?

Re: Quick one.
 

I agree with this, Carl. You have to at least get to a showdown with this hand. If you were that concerned with the straight on the turn, call the turn raise and call a river bet uninproved. This way, you can still raise the river if you pair, and get to see the showdown for the same amount of BBs.

In other words, if you believe this type of player would need the same type of hand to 4 bet as he would to 2 bet, then raising the 2 bet doesnt make alot of sense, if your plan is to muck to a 4 bet.

Re: Quick one.
 

In retrospect I agree, the calldown line/raise the river if board pairs is probably better against this guy. As I said, I'd only played about 1.5 hours with him and I had pegged him as weak/passive. At the time my thought process was this:

"Okay, he check raised me on the turn, he needs at least two pair for that. I beat all two pair hands, I 3-bet..."

"..Whoops, he 4-bet me, he has either the nuts or very close to it. I call, and hope the board pairs AND that I'm not up against a bigger set."

River bricked and I don't think he has a hand that I can beat.

==================================


Later that session, I open raise from the Hijack with A6o, same player is the only caller in blinds.

Flop: 8 5 4 (rainbow)

he check/calls my bet

Turn: 8

he check/calls my bet

River: K

he bets, I muck, and I overhear him telling the player next to him that he held K8 for the boat.

Not sure if this was a skillful rope, or more evidence of very passive play, but probably the latter.

Re: Quick one.
 

This fold is horrible. Simply horrible.

Not just in terms of how rarely you need to be good in order for a call to be correct, but did you consider the metagame ramifications of making this fold. Everybody in the room knows you have a set, and now you've shown them you'll fold it heads-up on a relatively non-threatning board. Yuck.

This river certainly presents you a difficult decision, but its close, and i'd much rather make a bet sized mistake than a BIG POT sized mistake. Making laydowns like this is hardly worth the risk of mucking the winner in a pot this big.

Call

lf

Re: Quick one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you call the last raise on the turn but muck the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was pretty sure he had turned a straight, and I wanted to see if I could fill up.

[/ QUOTE ]

so why 3 bet his c'r?

-Barron

Re: Quick one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
so why 3 bet his c'r?

-Barron


[/ QUOTE ]

Because it wasn't until the moment he 4-bet in tempo that I realized the strength of his hand, see my post above regarding my thoughts during the hand.

Also, I understand that there are metagame consequences to folding what appears to be a strong hand on the end, and that may sway a close decision. But with respect to the hand itself, I really thought I was beat, and isn't saving bets here and there based on specific reads part of where a good player's edge comes from?

I guess its hard to be 100% sure, but I'd say I was at least 95% sure I held a loser on the river, and even with the pot size at 13BB or so, that is enough to warrant a fold, right.

Re: Quick one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you need to make this kind of laydown, you should do it on the turn, not the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I didn't notice there was a straight possibility on board.