Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Let's assume villain is a 45/10 unknown. I would feel like a moron calling down with these, but I feel like I need to see a gynecologist when I fold. If I know the opponent, I am not so lost, but for the sake of this question lets call him "unknown" or "typical". This is in a 5/10 context, but I would very much appreciate answers or contrasts from 10/20 and higher also.


Hand #1
PREFLOP: UTG+1 limps, everyone folds, Hero checks in the BB with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

FLOP: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

TURN: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.

__________________________________________________ __________


Hand #2
PREFLOP: UTG+1 limps, everyone folds, Hero checks in the BB with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

FLOP: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

TURN: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.

__________________________________________________ __________


Hand #3
PREFLOP: UTG+1 limps, everyone folds, Hero checks in the BB with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

FLOP: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

TURN: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds.

__________________________________________________ ___________


What would you guys have done differently?


Thanks,
Cartman

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Hand 2 and 3 are identical, probably not what you meant.

Hande 1 seems pretty standard to me. Hand 2 is read dependent. Sometimes I'll 3 bet, call a cap and fold the turn UI. If he calls the 3-bet I lead the turn and river and fold to a raise UI.

Not sure that's the best line, but I don't like surrendering 2nd pair HU.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I think folding hand 1 is fine.

I call down in hand 2, mostly because I have a stronger hand. In hand 1 you can only beat a pure bluff or a draw that misses. In hand 2 you can beat a pure bluff, a draw that misses, a weaker ten, a 2, and a small pocket pair.

As a side note, I find the whole passive = weak = woman thing creepy, dumb, and, frankly, bad poker.

/mc

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I would have played it the same. Against some opponents I would call down with 2nd pair. I would be more inclined to call down at 10/20 than 5/10 since the "average opponent" is more aggressive. With 2nd pair good kicker I would take far more hands to SD than with middle pair no kicker.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I did mean for #2 and #3 to have the identical cards. In hand #2 he raised the flop and in hand #3 he raised the turn. Thanks for your comments.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]

As a side note, I find the whole passive = weak = woman thing creepy, dumb, and, frankly, bad poker.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for offending you or anyone else.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I like to play 2 and 3 a little more aggro on the flop and go for a c/r. It helps me get better info for later streets.

1 I just get rid of when the pot gets breathed on really.

Am I the only one taking these lines? Being noob sucks :P

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Hand #1 is an easy fold.

Hand #2 is read dependant. Against an unknown you should fold. But don't 3-bet. You're either way behind or a bit ahead.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]


I apologize for offending you or anyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

No biggy. I know it's common slang around here to equate weak/tight with female. It's always bothered me, and I just picked on you because your title made it weirdly explicit.

I, too, thought hand 3 was a typo. Looking at it again, I think my default play would be to not fold to the turn raise. Just because I feel like I'm ahead here enough of the time against typical players.

There's a lot of conflicting stuff going on in this hand - turn raises are usually bigger deals than flop raises, the pot size is small so you should be less likely to call down, the turn didn't bring any obvious draws for him to be semi-bluffing, these are all reasons to fold.

But you have a reasonably solid pair heads up in a short-handed game against an unknown opponent and that's a good reason not to fold. I'm guilty of extremely lazy poker and in this case I'm letting the rule of thumb "don't fold a pair heads up" play the hand for me.

/mc

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I see a showdown in hand# 2 only. I fold the other two.

I might be weak too, but in hand one I really don't have a hand and any card is an overcard for me. With position it is different.

In hand# 3, I do feel weak vs turn raises. I'm not sure if folding is the best play but there is no draw for him to semibluff with a worse hand than yours. I fold it here with no reads.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Hand 1 fine.

Hand 2 I call down for two reasons. I don't want UTG+1 to keep doing this to me. I would like to see what he has as I might find my way to a 45/10's table again in the very near future.

Hand 3 - I think the fold is fine.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, I find the whole passive = weak = woman thing creepy, dumb, and, frankly, bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

glad i'm not the only one.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, I find the whole passive = weak = woman thing creepy, dumb, and, frankly, bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

glad i'm not the only one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I find hands like this tough to give an answer. In the flow of the game it comes much easier. There is a good chance I would fold all. Small pot, good chance of being behind but in the heat of battle with a different feel for the players I might do differently.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I know it's common slang around here to equate weak/tight with female.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a female. What is interesting to me is that I play as a female and at least once a week there is dialogue at the table suggesting that I'm not really a female.

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a female.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea right.



[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Hand 1 I fold to the flop raise, but call with an overcard kicker, especially with a backdoor draw.

EDIT: crap hands 2 and 3 are different

hand 2, I will bet the turn a lot, and yeah fold to the raise.

hand 3, why would you check call the turn? he hasn't told you he has anything decent yet. I pretty much always follow through on the turn here. Call me weak but I fold to the raise against morst 5/10 opponents

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Does anyone check and call the turn in hand 3?

If so what is your river plan?

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I'm not if I bet out the flop unless I think the guy has nothing and will bluff with nothing for some reason.

If I did c/c the turn after leading the flop, it seems to follow that you'd c/c the river too?

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

lol

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Are the flop bets fine in all three hands, or would any of you check-fold or check-raise instead?

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I like c/ring 2-3, but no one else has spoken up and I suck so...... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Am I the only one that check raises on both of these flops? I think flop C/Rs make these types of hands MUCH easier to play.

Jon

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

Do you checkraise in hand #1 also? You are right in that for the cost of one more small bet the hand becomes much easier to play, but it removes the prospect of getting away from the hand cheaply because a real hand will often just call the flop CR and raise the turn. But I can't decide if it is worth it or not. I typically CR in this situation with any top pair T's or higher against an unknown.

Anyone else have an opinion on the checkraise here?

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you checkraise in hand #1 also?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would take an act of congress for me to show aggression with low pair, but for some reason I like it with mid pair.

I dunno. :/

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you checkraise in hand #1 also? You are right in that for the cost of one more small bet the hand becomes much easier to play, but it removes the prospect of getting away from the hand cheaply because a real hand will often just call the flop CR and raise the turn. But I can't decide if it is worth it or not. I typically CR in this situation with any top pair T's or higher against an unknown.

Anyone else have an opinion on the checkraise here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is a leak, but I'd go for a ck-raise on all 3 (at 5/10 or lower). You are betting and calling a raise anyway, right? Same cost. He might just fold a decent percent of the time if the flop missed him. If he 3 bets it, you can fold as he probably hit the flop with a hand that beats you. I don't think a bluff-reraise happens here often against a 'typical' opponent. Perhaps it does at 10/20..

The reason is that if I were UTG+1 and limped, then saw it folded around to the BB, I'd be likely to bet just about any hand. Like as not, the flop missed you and the pot is small. There are enough high cards on the flop that you can't rule out that the flop didn't hit me with something I'd limp with. Now, if I get chk-raised in that spot, and the flop missed me or I have a weak draw, do I really want to get involved? This isn't a blind defense situation, so I have to take the chk-raise seriously unless I know you are a habitual bluffer, or are over-aggro.

From my perspective (UTG+1), it feels like a failed steal attempt and I'm WA/WB chasing a small pot. I'd probably call and fold to a turn bet just so I don't feel 'weak' folding to a chk-raise.

Basically, I think the chk-raise puts UTG+1 in the position you find so uncomfortable, and that can't be a bad thing.
If you run into a real hand that calls the chk-raise and raises the turn you lose 1BB.

Looks like you win 1.75 BB when he folds to the chk-raise, 3.25 on a call/turn bet fold so this needs to work something like 30% of the time, not counting the times you improve on the turn. Does he have a hand 70% of the time here?

Re: Should I see a gynecologist?
 

I check-raise flop 1 because: 1) odds are I have the best hand, 2) it's a stronger play than betting out, and 3) your hand is vulnerable. Very few players in these 3/6 and 5/10 party games will fold the flop for one bet, with even an unimproved A or K (sometimes less). But if you C/R and lead the turn they will fold the turn.

You will be raised on the flop lead so often with nothing, that I seldom lead the flop HU w/ a made hand, unless I am trying to get 3 bets in on the flop.

Jon