How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

How high was your ROI when you moved up and how many games?

Just curious when people decided to move up. Not considering it myself yet although I have been running lucky lately.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

There's really not enough difference between the two to be really concerned about. As long as your roll is sufficient, you should probably move up. Determining how much you need is a personal thing.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

I had about a 170% ROI or something like that. Of course, I had only played 3.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

32% through 200.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had about a 170% ROI or something like that. Of course, I had only played 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK...i have 6 109s under my belt...2/1/0/2/0/1/0/0/0/0
I should go hit the 215s, yeah [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Heh. My shrinky balls stay put at the 55s/22s.

BL'...."gold medal in small samplesizes, 2005"

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Also, i am the proud owner of a -17& ROI at the $11s over 13 games. Oh my. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

BL'

(so...im too good for the 109s, and not good enough for the $11s...mebbe i play 215s and 6s solely?)

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna go ahead and call this retarded. If you suck at poker, moving up is a bad idea, unless you're doing it purely for enjoyment.

I think you should move up when you've got the bankroll, and you feel like you've got a good shot at beating the new level.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had about a 170% ROI or something like that. Of course, I had only played 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK...i have 6 109s under my belt...2/1/0/2/0/1/0/0/0/0
I should go hit the 215s, yeah [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Heh. My shrinky balls stay put at the 55s/22s.

BL'...."gold medal in small samplesizes, 2005"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm here to rip your gold medal. I have 1 $109 and took second. So 179% ROI (I think) through 1.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto pergasu's call on this. Moeranic.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

To answer OP, I was 25% over 500+ at 10s and then my ROI dropped considerably at 20s....like to 16-18% over 300+...I don't think I had a 12 OOTM until I went to 20s though...

I don't think your magnitude of +ROI matters though...if you feel like you are crushing the competition, you will know when you are ready to move up. For instance, if you go through a session of 100 SNGs and see that you made 1-2 donk mistakes but the rest of the times you were knocked out were bad beats, it's obviously time to move up regardless of your ROI. It doesn't matter if you've played 50 or 5000 of that level (which is why I would say ROI is less important than the overall makeup of players at that level compared to you).

Hope that helps.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with this? If you're good enough to be a winning player, you will move up as your bankroll increases and down whenever a bad run hits you, but you'll get to keep playing. If you're not a winning player, you'll bust anyway, so have fun with it.

I moved up to the 22's at:
300 games
23% ROI
actual bankroll of about $300 and no fear of ruin since I could redeposit

SlimP

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this advice. I don't know why several posters think it is retarded. There isn't really that much difference between the levels so if you can beat one there is good chance you can beat the next. If nothing else it would be good practice. You are costing yourself a good amount of money if you would be able to beat the next level and don't move up.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with this? If you're good enough to be a winning player, you will move up as your bankroll increases and down whenever a bad run hits you, but you'll get to keep playing. If you're not a winning player, you'll bust anyway, so have fun with it.

I moved up to the 22's at:
300 games
23% ROI
actual bankroll of about $300 and no fear of ruin since I could redeposit

SlimP

[/ QUOTE ]

damn man, i'm really sad i didn't see this til now... everyone else got to rip this apart but not me =(

what's wrong with it is that unlike you, the OP of this opinion didn't qualify with "as long as you're a good enough to be a winning player." by his suggestion, you should just play and move around blindly. so if you had a million dollars, but stunk, you should start at like, the step 5 highers or something, and move down only when you lost a ton. etc.

citanul

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this advice. I don't know why several posters think it is retarded. There isn't really that much difference between the levels so if you can beat one there is good chance you can beat the next. If nothing else it would be good practice. You are costing yourself a good amount of money if you would be able to beat the next level and don't move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

you've only slimly managed to not be the stupidest sounding person in this thread so far, and that's only because you didn't get here first.

no, wait, the me too + new stupid thing = you stupidest so far.

citanul

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this advice. I don't know why several posters think it is retarded. There isn't really that much difference between the levels so if you can beat one there is good chance you can beat the next. If nothing else it would be good practice. You are costing yourself a good amount of money if you would be able to beat the next level and don't move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

you've only slimly managed to not be the stupidest sounding person in this thread so far, and that's only because you didn't get here first.

no, wait, the me too + new stupid thing = you stupidest so far.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I just laughed out loud...ouch.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

I've played about a dozen $11s in my life, and 8 of those were when I decided to do my first set of 8 tabling. I pretty much started at the $33s.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

i move up when (1) im bored (2) my bankroll is dwindling
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

just under 500 games, just over 43%
as i've been telling people, the time at which i played my games like that in bulk, the games were REALLY easy. having played a few games since then, i can vouch for them being harder.

my ROI in those games since then is like 11 games played, -100% roi

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement, unqualified by "if you are a winning player." Some people have other goals in poker than winning money. They have to because most people can't win money long-term playing poker. I'm still willing to accept that I could be on a 1000-tournament heater and might still be a losing player. Anyway, in defense of the OP here, if a losing player gets his rocks off by playing Step 5 Highers, let that player do so. If he has fun then it's money well spent. A bankroll that's "big enough" means different things to a player depending on whether the player is a long-term winner or a long-term loser. Especially since so much is thrown around along the lines of "move up at 20/30/50/100 buy-ins and down at X buy-ins," which is all meaningless without context BTW, I'd rather people ask "How big is 'big enough'?" rather than "When should I move up?" because it forces them to define their goals for poker rather than just blindly stabbing around trying to imitate the online pros without the necessary skills.

Q: When should I move up?
A: When your bankroll is big enough.
Q: When is my bankroll big enough?
return Q: Are you a winning player?
return A: I don't know.
A: Assume you're a loser. Play whatever level would be the most fun as long as you don't mind losing all the money you put in until you can tell if you're a winner player. Then come back and ask again.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK...i have 6 109s under my belt...2/1/0/2/0/1/0/0/0/0
I should go hit the 215s, yeah [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Heh. My shrinky balls stay put at the 55s/22s.

BL'...."gold medal in small samplesizes, 2005"

[/ QUOTE ]

That finish distribution is perfect...

-IV

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Moving up too soon is less wrong than moving down too late.

If you think your a winning player long term and can move down when it all turns south, your bankroll doesnt actually need to be anywhere near the 'solid' figure.

Quick roll thoughts:
Most people: 30-50 buy ins
Raptor (to name one): 50-100
Me: 20 (but ONLY if you can drop down without any second thought if you run bad)

As for ROI, your figure isnt that important. Your not going to be playing 10000 games to get it accurate, and if you wait 1000 games youve lost a lot of $ by not moving up sooner. As long as its in a 'winning range' of 10-30% over a couple of hundred, your prolly ready for the next level.

Phill

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Only problem is it's hugely -ev to have to keep dropping down in levels, which will happen if you use a 20 buyin BR. A bad run might see a 109er have to drop to the 33s or worse???

Having to keep changing buyins even daily doesn't allow you to get into a rhythm either.

Saving 40-50 buyins for the next level also allows you to mature (build on your skills) at the current level.

If you are a $22er-$33er who is skilled enough to play the 109s it won't take long to save up a 40 buyin BR anyway.

Moving up as soon as possible is fine, but there are disadvantages. Operating on a smaller BR than you can afford is just -ev.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

there was a long thread a while back about daliman and his bankroll management skills, or lack thereof. that discussion was very good and i recomment that anyone looking to find a talk about gambling v playing with a strong bankroll read it.

i have nothing against taking earlier shots at the levels higher than you are playing. and there is nothing at all wrong with gambling with your whole bankroll if it is actually a replenishable sum. additionally, if you don't care if you lose the money, it's ok to just gamble.

but i do take issue with the idea that if you've got a lot of money, you must be ok gambling for high stakes, just because the money is worth less. some people can/do play for entertainment, but just because you are rich doesn't mean that you are such a person.

citanul

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Moving up too soon is less wrong than moving down too late.

If you think your a winning player long term and can move down when it all turns south, your bankroll doesnt actually need to be anywhere near the 'solid' figure.

Quick roll thoughts:
Most people: 30-50 buy ins
Raptor (to name one): 50-100
Me: 20 (but ONLY if you can drop down without any second thought if you run bad)

As for ROI, your figure isnt that important. Your not going to be playing 10000 games to get it accurate, and if you wait 1000 games youve lost a lot of $ by not moving up sooner. As long as its in a 'winning range' of 10-30% over a couple of hundred, your prolly ready for the next level.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as bankroll questions go, I'd say that if you're doing it full-time you should have a minimum of 150-200 buyins ready for the inevitable swings for $55+ SNGs. This is much much more than others advocate but without a job it's very hard to rebuild after losing your bankroll. I'm personally going through a really bad run right now where if I had only 30 buyins I'd be hurting like hell.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

btw, bah on you. this is quite fine advice, and i came back here to reread it to see if it was flamable. sigh.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

I agree its not a perfect system, but its a system. Its also one i dont use as is.

But if im running bad i do drop to 10s. If im running good i hit the 30s. I generally play the 20s though.

If/when i get to the 100 level, im sure as fook gonna have a solid roll. But 10s and 20s run so close that its prolly more profitable to take that shot rather than play another 100 10s.

Big rolls is a long term thing. Small rolls is short term. It also becomes much less correct beyond the 22/33 switch.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Obviously if your making your living from poker, you should have a big bankroll.

Its not that i dont know bankroll theory, its just i advocate a different method for when you start out.

Phill

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only problem is it's hugely -ev to have to keep dropping down in levels, which will happen if you use a 20 buyin BR. A bad run might see a 109er have to drop to the 33s or worse???

Having to keep changing buyins even daily doesn't allow you to get into a rhythm either.

Saving 40-50 buyins for the next level also allows you to mature (build on your skills) at the current level.

If you are a $22er-$33er who is skilled enough to play the 109s it won't take long to save up a 40 buyin BR anyway.

Moving up as soon as possible is fine, but there are disadvantages. Operating on a smaller BR than you can afford is just -ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this advice is greatly different than dmkimmel's. Why not move up when you hit like 50 buy ins and move down when you have less than 50 buy ins, think you could do this with a smaller number? I also don't see how people can think this is "moranic" or w/e the hell they called it. Curtains used such a system in his 8 tabling. Strass reccommended moving up as soon as I hit 30 buy ins for the next level. Are you going to call them stupid, citanul? No instead you just like to boost your ego picking on posters who's number by their name isn't as big as yours. It's retarded that you think the post needed to be clarified by "if you are a winning player." Obviously if you suck your going to lose your money anyway.

As far as you thinking jumping around is -EV, I think staying at the 10 and 20 dollar level with a 7k bankroll is much, much, much more -EV. This is true in both the SR with the likely immediate profits you are giving up and the LR since you are improving at a much slower pace.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

I'm with you on moving down when things go bad. Starting out at a new level I can't imagine dropping 10 buy ins and maintaining confidence. thx

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Does anybody play mutliple levels at the same time?

I often find myself in playing one $20, one $30 and one $50 at the same time.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Yea I usually play 2 20s and 2 30s

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Yeah, I've done this before when I tried using a 'rolling bankroll' that I read about from I think Slim Pickens. Basically you divide your bankroll by 30 and then get the exact combination of buy-ins going so that you have 30 buy-ins for that set.

So if you have $415, you might fire up 3 11s and 1 22. I found that I wasn't a huge fan of this for some reason, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless and some may like it.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you've only slimly managed to not be the stupidest sounding person in this thread so far, and that's only because you didn't get here first.

no, wait, the me too + new stupid thing = you stupidest so far.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, can we get a moderator in this forum? Posts like this turn potentially solid threats into deteriorating flame wars that result in an excellent waste of space in the 2+2 archives.


Come on cit, you can back yourself up a little better than this. There's some real discussion to be had here. And if you don't think so, then why post?


Kings

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

Little over 300, little over 30%.

Regarding the bankroll and moving up talk:

Some people move up slowly because they don't have the gambool in them. I've been doing fine over the small sample of $55s I've played, but I'm definitely starting to feel a little uncomfortable with the stakes eventhough I can afford it. It's funny how $200-$300 or so is about what I've felt comfortable gambling all my adult life, whether it was playing blackjack in college when that was most of my money or later times when I was loaded (I used to have a lot more money before I had kids (sorry, Drapes)). It will be a struggle for me to make it to the higher buyins, no matter how good my results are.

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how good u are. Move up when ur bankroll is big enough and down when its not.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with this? If you're good enough to be a winning player, you will move up as your bankroll increases and down whenever a bad run hits you, but you'll get to keep playing. If you're not a winning player, you'll bust anyway, so have fun with it.

I moved up to the 22's at:
300 games
23% ROI
actual bankroll of about $300 and no fear of ruin since I could redeposit

SlimP

[/ QUOTE ]

damn man, i'm really sad i didn't see this til now... everyone else got to rip this apart but not me =(

what's wrong with it is that unlike you, the OP of this opinion didn't qualify with "as long as you're a good enough to be a winning player." by his suggestion, you should just play and move around blindly. so if you had a million dollars, but stunk, you should start at like, the step 5 highers or something, and move down only when you lost a ton. etc.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have a large enough bankroll you can afford to play at that level. If it turns out you're not a winning player you'll move down again.

After a while of moving up/down between your winning/losing level you will either
1) Get more experience and start to beat the new level
2) Figure our that you DON'T beat it and settle for the one you beat

What's wrong with that advice?

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you've only slimly managed to not be the stupidest sounding person in this thread so far, and that's only because you didn't get here first.

no, wait, the me too + new stupid thing = you stupidest so far.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THIS, this is moderation!
The citanul we love and missed in his absence.

(and to the flamee, man, he ripped a few of my posts back in the day too)

BL'

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

I moved up a few times. I just don't feel as though the 11s are that profitable and I don't know how people do so well in them. First time I had a 1.5k roll (built up mostly in PLO and NL cash games) and I dropped 30 buyins at the 11s in 2 days. I was frustrated playing against a table full of Gus Hansens with no folding equity and having to deal with constant minraises. I moved up to the $22s and made 1.2k in 5 days. My ROI was likely in the negatives at the 11s. Next I moved down to the 11s when I started 8 tabling. Dropped another 35 buyins very quickly (yeah, I know variance and getting used to 8 tabling). Then (like a smart gambler heh) I decided to move up to recoup my losses. I made 1.8k that next week and have never look back. I would estimate my lifetime ROI at the 11s to be around 10% (no stats, have played around 800). My lifetime at the 22s is around 20% (1000 or so, 25% over my last 550).

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

the problem is that if you start with a million dollars and you stink you lose it all. ?

citanul

Re: How bad were you crushing the 11\'s when you moved up to the 22s?
 

If you have a million $ bankroll why are you playing SnGs in the first place?

At least if you are, hire zeejustin or jason strasser to tutor you at the highest level games and 1-4 table them.

If you have that much money, you wont be moving up and down trying to learn to play. Unless your a retard.

Phill