A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

How do you propose to enforce such laws?


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

How was it enforced prior to roe v.wade?

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

It wasn't. A lot more women had to seek proper medical attention for botched abortions tho. Some even died.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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It wasn't. A lot more women had to seek proper medical attention for botched abortions tho. Some even died.

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than that is how it would be enforced now. I feel no responsiblity to make breaking a law easier. thus breaking a law prohibiting abortions should incur a risk.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How was it enforced prior to roe v.wade?

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Ineffectively. Do you intend to change that?


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

How do we enforce most laws?

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How do we enforce most laws?

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I got it. We'll set up speed traps outside illegal abortion clinics.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How was it enforced prior to roe v.wade?

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Ineffectively. Do you intend to change that?


q/q

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Ineffetively explain?

How are any laws enforced? Why would abortion be different. Essentially once the crime is discovered it is investigated, tried, and punished.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How do we enforce most laws?

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I got it. We'll set up speed traps outside illegal abortion clinics.

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If abortion is illegal how would there be known abortion clinics? Your answer is retarded.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How do we enforce most laws?

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I got it. We'll set up speed traps outside illegal abortion clinics.

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If abortion is illegal how would there be known abortion clinics? Your answer is retarded.

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No, what's retarded is that you bothered to respond to my post.

Alex, I'll take "People Who Don't Get It" for $600.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How are any laws enforced?

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(So, I take it that you reeeeeeally don't want to directly answer my question?)

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Why would abortion be different.

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Because the "crime" in this case is the termination of a pregnancy. For the state to determine whether such a crime is being committed, it must, presumably, begin to monitor women's pregnancies (so that it can determine which ones have been illegally terminated). Do you dispute this?


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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How are any laws enforced?

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(So, I take it that you reeeeeeally don't want to directly answer my question?)

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Why would abortion be different.

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Because the "crime" in this case is the termination of a pregnancy. For the state to determine whether such a crime is being committed, it must, presumably, begin to monitor women's pregnancies (so that it can determine which ones have been illegally terminated). Do you dispute this?


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that would be one way but since it is unlikely that is what the people would want it is mostly just a scare tatic used by people who are afraid of allowing the people to decide

in reality law enforcement would investigate and prosecute those who perform the abortions. this would be done with evidence as in the case of all crimes.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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in reality law enforcement would investigate and prosecute those who perform the abortions.

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So, then, you believe that women who hire abortionists should not be punished?


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

Accessory to murder.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Accessory to murder.

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If abortion was the killing of a child, there's no reason why it shouldn't be murder two in the least (maybe man one in some cases). (damn, I watch too much L&O)

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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in reality law enforcement would investigate and prosecute those who perform the abortions.

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So, then, you believe that women who hire abortionists should not be punished?


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No they should be pursued like other criminals are pursued,

Your belief that this requires the government monitoring pregnacies would like saying in order to have any laws the government must be able to prevent that particular criminal activity 100%

In short we will do the best we can while still adhering to the values we hold dear.

That abortion cannot be entirely prevented is a rather nonsensical approach to deciding if it should be legal.

You are much better off just saying that you value this particular freedom over the life of the unborn.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Your belief that this requires the government monitoring pregnacies would like saying in order to have any laws the government must be able to prevent that particular criminal activity 100%

In short we will do the best we can while still adhering to the values we hold dear.

...

You are much better off just saying that you value this particular freedom over the life of the unborn.


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So, just to clarify:

Which particular freedom is it that you believe supersedes the right to life of the unborn?


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

Police would have the same investigatory powers they have to prosecute other crimes. No more no less.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Your belief that this requires the government monitoring pregnacies would like saying in order to have any laws the government must be able to prevent that particular criminal activity 100%

In short we will do the best we can while still adhering to the values we hold dear.

...

You are much better off just saying that you value this particular freedom over the life of the unborn.


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So, just to clarify:

Which particular freedom is it that you believe supersedes the right to life of the unborn?


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I don't.

Is difficulty is enforcement really how you decide what should be legal and illegal?

non reality -hypothetical if I could simply stop abortions from wishiing it so, yet the desire of some to have abortions remained, would you support them being illegal?

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Police would have the same investigatory powers they have to prosecute other crimes. No more no less.

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Yeah QoQ I really don't understand your confusion here. Please explain your opinion further.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

No, not at all. The crime would be the deletion of human life. The fact that "tracking" that life would be harder in the case of abortion than in the case of Nicole Simpson shouldnt matter.


E.G. The murder of small children might be harder to detect also....logically does that mean we cant legislate laws in order to protect small children?

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

Better question:
What are the punishments for an abortion? Is this a serious crime? Is this worth 5+ years in jail, as with any normal murderer?

Are the police going to spend a week trying to solve abortion cases?

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Better question:
What are the punishments for an abortion? Is this a serious crime? Is this worth 5+ years in jail, as with any normal murderer?

Are the police going to spend a week trying to solve abortion cases?

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yes now that is a hard question!

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Yeah QoQ I really don't understand your confusion here. Please explain your opinion further.

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My confusion is that you apparantly want abortion to be illegal, but you aren't willing to go into even the slightest detail about how you intend to enforce such laws.

Every time I ask for details, you either dodge the question or you try and change the subject.

I asked if you wanted the state to start monitoring pregnancies. You said no, people wouldn't accept that.

So I asked if you intended to prosecute women who seek abortions. You wouldn't answer. (But if abortion is truly murder, then both soliciting the act and delivering the victim to the killer would certainly constitute both conspiracy to commit murder and acting as an accessory to murder, wouldn't you agree?)

I also asked you to explain which "particular freedom" outweighed the "right to life" of the unborn (since you implied that this is why you wouldn't expand police powers to make such laws effective). But then you said that no such freedom outweighed the rights of the unborn, at least in your view.

So, yes, I'm confused -- because your rhetoric doesn't jibe with your proposed solution.

You want to make something illegal, but you admit that nobody would accept the police powers necessary to enforce such laws. You say you don't even want to expand those police powers because it would interfere with our personal freedoms, but then you turn around and say that no freedom supersedes the rights of the unborn.

So this really leaves us with just two possibilities : either you will be satisfied with purely symbolic laws, and will go no further; or you are being patently dishonest as to the police powers you will ultimately seek. Since you believe that abortion is a full-blown genocide of the unborn, I simply do not accept that you intend for its criminalization to be purely symbolic. That leaves us with option #2: you are consciously misleading people, leaving out the "hard-to-sell" parts of your agenda (for now) so that you can get your way on Roe before you move on to the next step in your agenda.

Show me where I'm wrong.


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

Then answer it. :P

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

QoQ I am not in neither a law making body or a law enforcement body. I don't know the details of how many laws are enforced does that mean I am forbidden from supporting those laws. I(we)have instead elected and hired peope to determine these specifics for me (us) abortion would no different.

Law making/enforcement bodies/agencies would determine the best means to do this and then we as a people would adjust our desires based on the outcome.

The government doesn't track sex, yet is still able to prosecute and punish some prostitution. Abortion would be no different.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

Come on, this is pretty lame. Abortion would be enforced the same way we enforce racketeering, or copyright laws, if society wanted it that way, but if not, then society would enforce it through active investigation.

Pre Roe days didn't have a stringent police task force on abortion. They shut down most abortion clinics and went on their way.

If it was obvious there was an abortion clinic, it would be shut down. If it was really obvious a woman had an abortion, she would be arrested, though without a body, it would be insanely hard to prosecute on such cases, and no one would want to anyway.

So, basically, it all depends on how serious a crime abortion would be. You can enforce differing degrees of seriousness on a crime, and it depends on how serious a crime abortion would be, which is why my question is answered before yours.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Then answer it. :P

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My own values? Yes they should be. If everyone agreed with me then abortion would become illegal after the first trimestor as I believe this compromise balances the protection of life while still leaving the woman plenty of time to maintain her freedom. The only execption would be in those cases where a reasonable medical determination could me made that proceding with the pregnancy puts the mother's life/health in undo harm. Things like mental health would not qualify but not being able to be pregnant again would. This would be done through a court ordered process. ie the mother would go before a judge seeking the court order allowing the termination of pregnancy.

after that point I would consider and want it treated no differently than the mother who kills her newborn 2 days after birth.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

Yes, you persecute the woman. I thought that was implied.

We have laws governing investigations. Subpenoes, miranda rights, you know the things that govern criminal investigations.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

If you really believe a fetus is a human being, you should use the same standards as murder/manslaughter.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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If you really believe a fetus is a human being, you should use the same standards as murder/manslaughter.

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Now, that comes into a very difficult case. I personally, don't know whether or not a fetus is a human being. I personally don't think that the police should actively investigate something. I don't want my tax dollars invested in a case that would prove difficult to prosecute without a body, and especially without anyone to vouch for the victim here. I think it would be very hard to try to convict someone of murder for aborting their fetus, especially with a bunch of biased people on the jury.

That's just me.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

So you think that OJ and Jackson should never have been tried on the grounds it would be costly and likely fruitless.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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So you think that OJ and Jackson should never have been tried on the grounds it would be costly and likely fruitless.

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Look at my first sentence in the previous post. And OJ should have been easily convicted by a competent prosecution and a more informed jury.

Right now, he would have been convicted easily. They had tons of evidence in that case, far more than what they would have in an abortion trial.

I think the lack of forensics would be a real issue for most cases.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

This is becomming quite funny.

Who is to determine when a case is "too diffucult" to be worth prosecuting? What grounds should we use?

If a homeless person is found dead by gunshot in a dumpster should we not bother investigating because it will be too diffucult to get a conviction.

And what gives you the right to determine what the jury should have found. Are we going to overturn jury decisions whenever you feel they are wrong.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Now, that comes into a very difficult case. I personally, don't know whether or not a fetus is a human being.

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There is nothing at all difficult about this case.

If a fetus is not a human being, then abortion is not murder and there is no basis for criminalizing it in the first place.


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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Now, that comes into a very difficult case. I personally, don't know whether or not a fetus is a human being.

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There is nothing at all difficult about this case.

If a fetus is not a human being, then abortion is not murder and there is no basis for criminalizing it in the first place.

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What if you don't know whether or not a fetus is a human being? If a fetus is a human being, and if it not, it is pretty clearcut. But what if you honestly have no idea how the rights of a fetus should be weighed against the rights of a baby, or a mother?

And lehighguy, yeah, you investigate. But there's a body there. Makes a helluva lot of difference. What I'm saying here is that how do you decide whether or not this is worth prosecuting, considering that a fetus may not be worth what a baby is, and considering the difficulty of the prosecution?

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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But what if you honestly have no idea how the rights of a fetus should be weighed against the rights of a baby, or a mother?

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You've already made that judgment, the moment you decided that abortion should be criminalized.


q/q

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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But what if you honestly have no idea how the rights of a fetus should be weighed against the rights of a baby, or a mother?

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You've already made that judgment, the moment you decided that abortion should be criminalized.

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Probability and hedging your bets should be known to every single 2+2er out there.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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But what if you honestly have no idea how the rights of a fetus should be weighed against the rights of a baby, or a mother?

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You've already made that judgment, the moment you decided that abortion should be criminalized.


q/q

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I really don't see how anyone can disagree with what QoQ is saying here. Clearly if you don't believe a fetus to be a human than it can't have the protection afforded a human.

if you can't determine that a fetus is a form life worth protecting with law than you shouldn't be taking the position that abortion should be illegal.

this is quite clear IMO.

Re: A simple question : for those who want to outlaw abortion
 

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But what if you honestly have no idea how the rights of a fetus should be weighed against the rights of a baby, or a mother?

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You've already made that judgment, the moment you decided that abortion should be criminalized.

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Probability and hedging your bets should be known to every single 2+2er out there.

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Your being very casual with people's freedom. Your hedging and not being able to make a decision would still result in people being prosecuted. thus you have effectively decided that a fetus is a life worth punishing people for harming.