Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

coaching a friend online, he played this at PP 1/2NL

full ring

hero is on BB with 33.

folded to very good player on button who raises to 12 (standard opener for table). hero folds.

I pat him on the back.

fim

EDIT- Both stacks @~200

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

I can predict a horde of people stampeding this thread to demand a call there. Let me find my body armor.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

POOOOOOOOOOOOOSH.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Hell, I fold threes all the time.

Do you mean to suggest that the button is too good to ever pay him off on this hand if he hits a set?

Or do you mean that your friend is nowhere near good enough to even thinking about outplaying the villain in this position?

Or do you mean that your friend needs to leave this guy alone and wait for better spots against the other players at the table?

Or some combination of the above?

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

I'm guessing a very good player who raises to 12 on the button might appear to give good implied odds for a call, but really isn't, because his raising range being on the button and first in the pot is much larger than what you'd like him to hold when you do flop your set.

Plus if he's a decent player, you're not getting full value for your set if he flops top pair w AK-AQ or has something like TT-JJ.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

if you don't think he'll get value for his set from this guy then looks good... against most players this seems like an easy call though

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

We could do a lot of math to prove that this is a good fold. Or we could just say "good fold."

I prefer the latter.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Ok I'll play devils advocate, why fold here? This is only 6% of the stacks involved. Is villian so good that he will always correctly laydown when hero has the best hand, is anybody this good?
I think raising is a better option than folding. If villian is good his raising range is enormous here, but only a few of those hands could call a reraise profitably.

Ok let me have it....

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'll play devils advocate, why fold here? This is only 6% of the stacks involved. Is villian so good that he will always correctly laydown when hero has the best hand, is anybody this good?
I think raising is a better option than folding. If villian is good his raising range is enormous here, but only a few of those hands could call a reraise profitably.

Ok let me have it....

[/ QUOTE ]

For the reraise option, let's do the math:

If you were to reraise to $45, you are betting $43 to win $15. He would have to fold 75% of the time for this to be profitable from purely a preflop perspective.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Do you think he is raising with a legitimate raising hand more than 25% of the time? Or better yet is he raising with a hand that can call a reraise more than 25% of the time? I guess this would depend alot on what he'll call with, but assuming he's good this range should be rather narrow I would think. JMO

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

don't know if I would take a stand against a steal with 33, and I wouldn't call 6XBB raise with a HU pot and all I am looking for to win the pot is another 3. Maybe if the raise was in EP and there were 3 other callers, then I could call profitably with 33

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

So when the flop comes with 3 overcards what's your plan.

Only plan I can see is to go completely broke.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

What would you take a stand with, surely more than just big pairs? AK,AQ,KQ maybe 88-TT? You are ahead of villians range of hands with all those hands and small pairs. Also folding pairs to a 6xBB raise is very weak-tight, as long as the stacks justify calling you are losing ev by folding. I believe everyone is advocating a fold in this situation because they do not believe hero will win a big pot if he hits and will likely be outplayed postflop if he misses. I'm advocating an alternative would be to not let it get to the flop where he could be pushed off the best hand(which he very likely has). JMO

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

I don't plan on seeing a flop. If I'm called I'm pretty well done barring a great flop. Seriously how often do you expect to be called though? Villian is probably raising ATC in this spot, very few of those can stand a reraise. JMO

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

so its either bet huge to win 12 or fold, and if you are called you are busted?

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

This is just one hand. It is one of many occuring in the game, it is not occuring in a vacuum. Why is there a discussion about 'taking a stand'? Has villian been pounding hero's blind a lot recently? I don't remember reading that.

I say fold.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

thought it was taking a stand anytime you defend your blind, i guess i was mistaken

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Actually you don't need to bet huge and their is $15 in the pot. A resteal is just that a steal, sometimes you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Another poster has already stated that if you raise to $45 you need him to fold 75% of the time, I don't think this is an unreasonable expectation. I actually think he'll fold considerably more often than that. JMO

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

I'm not arguing taking a stand, I'm providing an alternative to folding. I don't think folding is horrible(it's clearly better than calling) just that raising would be even better. Folding has neutral expectation , I believe raising has +ev in this situation. JMO

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Check raising a big PFR is almost always viewed as a slowplay of AA or KK. I think this will be folded enough by the button to make this play profitable. I did it to John DA'gustino on Full Tilt and scammed $36 off of him with a mere A8s.

The problem with this play is that you can only do it rarely at best. It would be helpful if you did this when you had the goods once in while and showed it down or showed when you mucked.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Running a huge bluff is frequently +EV against a good player in a vacuum. But poker isn't played in a vacuum and when you start trying to buy every single pot it will not take long to go broke.

If the only hands you play are AA, KK, QQ, and 72o, and your opponents are aware of how tight you play, then you could make a profit by stealing with 72o. Just because your steals are +EV doesn't mean that your strategy is optimal.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

how big of a pair do you need to start reraising the button?

how big of a pair to just call the button?

AK/AQ reraise huge?

KQs/AXs/AJ-T? this all sucks OOP against a good player but they cant just be tossed to a steal and this is ALOT of reraising material

hmm

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

Ciaffone says 99 and up I believe, but if I recall properly this was ring

In my experience any middle pair is golden for a reraise in these spots

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

What does he need to call/raise? 66? TT?

Villain is raising any to playable cards here. 33 is a good enough hand to call and lead any flop. Sometimes you'll have a monster, and most of the time you'll have the best hand. If you haven't played back before, villain should be hesitant to bluff-raise you on the flop, and if you have played back a couple of times before, maybe playing for set value is not such a bad idea afterall.

This is crazy stuff; I'm disagreeing with fimbul and soah. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But seriously, should he really give up his blinds to villain (almost) no matter what he's holding?

I guess it depends on how good "very good" means though.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

It depends how often he is attacking my blinds.

He's a good player, in position, and he's overbetting the pot, so he is going to win my blinds most of the time. I can afford to wait for a better hand to make a stand with, regardless of the frequency of his steals.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does he need to call/raise? 66? TT?

Villain is raising any to playable cards here. 33 is a good enough hand to call and lead any flop. Sometimes you'll have a monster, and most of the time you'll have the best hand. If you haven't played back before, villain should be hesitant to bluff-raise you on the flop, and if you have played back a couple of times before, maybe playing for set value is not such a bad idea afterall.

This is crazy stuff; I'm disagreeing with fimbul and soah. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But seriously, should he really give up his blinds to villain (almost) no matter what he's holding?

I guess it depends on how good "very good" means though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you call and the pot is $25. Three overcards flop, you fire a pot bet and he calls. You?

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

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What does he need to call/raise? 66? TT?

Villain is raising any to playable cards here. 33 is a good enough hand to call and lead any flop. Sometimes you'll have a monster, and most of the time you'll have the best hand. If you haven't played back before, villain should be hesitant to bluff-raise you on the flop, and if you have played back a couple of times before, maybe playing for set value is not such a bad idea afterall.

This is crazy stuff; I'm disagreeing with fimbul and soah. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But seriously, should he really give up his blinds to villain (almost) no matter what he's holding?

I guess it depends on how good "very good" means though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you call and the pot is $25. Three overcards flop, you fire a pot bet and he calls. You?

[/ QUOTE ] Check raise or check fold. Depends on the situation, especially how frequently he has been stealing my blinds and how frequently I have made stands.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does he need to call/raise? 66? TT?

Villain is raising any to playable cards here. 33 is a good enough hand to call and lead any flop. Sometimes you'll have a monster, and most of the time you'll have the best hand. If you haven't played back before, villain should be hesitant to bluff-raise you on the flop, and if you have played back a couple of times before, maybe playing for set value is not such a bad idea afterall.

This is crazy stuff; I'm disagreeing with fimbul and soah. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But seriously, should he really give up his blinds to villain (almost) no matter what he's holding?

I guess it depends on how good "very good" means though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you call and the pot is $25. Three overcards flop, you fire a pot bet and he calls. You?

[/ QUOTE ] Check raise or check fold. Depends on the situation, especially how frequently he has been stealing my blinds and how frequently I have made stands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is why the default play is to fold preflop. If in the origial post it said "aggressive button raised my blind 5 of the last 6 times...I'm deciding here to make a stand.." my and others replies probably would have been different.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does he need to call/raise? 66? TT?

Villain is raising any to playable cards here. 33 is a good enough hand to call and lead any flop. Sometimes you'll have a monster, and most of the time you'll have the best hand. If you haven't played back before, villain should be hesitant to bluff-raise you on the flop, and if you have played back a couple of times before, maybe playing for set value is not such a bad idea afterall.

This is crazy stuff; I'm disagreeing with fimbul and soah. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But seriously, should he really give up his blinds to villain (almost) no matter what he's holding?

I guess it depends on how good "very good" means though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you call and the pot is $25. Three overcards flop, you fire a pot bet and he calls. You?

[/ QUOTE ] Check raise or check fold. Depends on the situation, especially how frequently he has been stealing my blinds and how frequently I have made stands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is why the default play is to fold preflop. If in the origial post it said "aggressive button raised my blind 5 of the last 6 times...I'm deciding here to make a stand.." my and others replies probably would have been different.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Without a good read providing a reason to attack this guy, I'd rather just fold and get dealt the next hand. Against an unknown, it doesn't seem like the lines being discussed here are going to be profitable.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

He is not an unknown, he is a very good player. I take that to mean that his raising range when folded to on the button is very wide. Especially if BB is tight OOP, which he quite obviously is.

If he's so good that I'm scared to play a pot with him, then ok, I fold. But there would have to be a couple of very bad players at the table for me to sit at all under those circumstances.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

I didn't mean 'unknown' like I don't know who he is I mean 'unknown' like I don't have a good read on his play so I am likely to be the one making mistakes OOP postflop.

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

how do you know you are getting paid off for a lot more $$ if you do hit your set, enough to be profitable? will he pay off to a big reraise after the flop?

Re: Very Well Played Hand 1/2
 

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=4#Post2863060

Some good discussion on this scenario.