Party 2-4
 

I've been playing this game a bit -- probably have about 500-750 hands. It's alot different than the 3-6 -- fewer good players, I think. And the ante structure makes completing to k/o poor play. I've been just limping split TT and the like against multiple limpers -- the $1 completion increase won't get folds, the pot is smaller anyway, and you just end up putting in more money. I've been playing much more trappy -- trying to limp lots of hands (since a raise if one happens is less costly), catch a big one and get called down by 3 or 4 loose gooses. This is actualy a fairly high variance style -- after losing about $50 over 150 hands or so, I won $100 in a span of four hands when I hit two flushes in multiway pots.

Re: Party 2-4
 

IMO, the ante is proportionally smaller then the 3-6 and the bring in is a higher percentage of the full bet so playing looser may not be correct unless you can be sure of getting in cheap and can maneuver around on 4th real well. I have been completing a lot on 3rd in this game and winning by taking the early value against opponents who are playing much too loose.

Re: Party 2-4
 

Interesting.. I'm a little afraid of a bring in strucure like that. Seems hard to punish limpers which is where I like to make my $$. Is it the type of game where their going to pay you off when you hit your doorcard? Those are the best.


I wonder if Mike Emery will try to 8 table it.

Keep us updated on some strategy thoughts.

Re: Party 2-4
 

I really like MRBAA's line. Why push a small edge when you're getting called anyways, when you can make them pay for their mistakes on fourth, where you can force them to make much bigger mistakes.

Re: Party 2-4
 

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IMO, the ante is proportionally smaller then the 3-6 and the bring in is a higher percentage of the full bet so playing looser may not be correct unless you can be sure of getting in cheap and can maneuver around on 4th real well. I have been completing a lot on 3rd in this game and winning by taking the early value against opponents who are playing much too loose.

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I sat in this game for the first time last night. Up 20 BB in 123 hands.

From this limited experience I think the money is made Pounding with the premium hands and dumping everything else.

Both game that are adjacent to this one have looser ante structures so if you were successful at 1-2 and play the same way at 2-4 you'll get crushed. And moving from 3-6 to 2-4 isn't as big a shift...but you still need to tighten up alot because the ante is smaller and the BI is too big to "see 4th cheap"

Re: Party 2-4
 

But this isn't a small edge. If they'll call a full bet with 229 and you have T4T you should be pouring money in the pot.

I think limping is almost always wrong in this game. And hand that is worth putting in 1/2 SB with is probably most often ahead.

Re: Party 2-4
 

Okay, here's my thinking Jon:

First: everything is situational. Dead cards are obviously huge. As for position --

Four folds to you with split Ts and no overcards (or one) behind -- raise.

Three limps to you, same situation, now i limp. Why? Two reasons:

First the pot equity I capture by forcing worse hands to fold behind me is less, since the pot is smaller than it would be in the same situation in an overante game like 3-6.

Second, and much more important, while you are absolutely correct that I often have a decent pot equity edge against the limpers, by building up the pot early I'm capturing an extra $1 of pot equity, but I'm also building a larger pot that makes folding fourth much harder and threatens to tie me on for the big bet streets, too.

Stud is less straightforward than he about these situations -- it's really variable. I think what I've really found so far is that players make so many more calling than folding errors in this game and the ante is small to start, that the big money seems to be made more by getting called on the later streets when you hit a hand -- hence my desire to play a bit looser.

Again, though, it's all situational. I haven't seen a lot of completing in the games I've played. If I do, I'd have to adjust. The raise that is devastating in that game is when you complete to $2 with those split Ts and now an overcard makes it $4 -- actually that's another factor in my thinking about limping more.

Re: Party 2-4
 

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I've been just limping split TT and the like against multiple limpers

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Thats exactly what you should be doing. Played fine.

If you can't limit the field with medium pairs, there is no reason to raise.. you are better off waiting till 5th to see where you stand.

That my friends is right out of 7csfap.

Looking forward to our next meeting!!

CJ

Re: Party 2-4
 

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Three limps to you, same situation, now i limp.

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This hand is just gonna be a bitch to play. It will be very hard to accurately judge where you stand on 4th. There will be very few cards that your opponents can catch that don't threaten your hand in some way.

I would definetly fold this hand on 3rd if :: there is an overcard behind me, an overcard limped, I expected a raise behind me

If none of those situations applied I could fold or raise...depending on my mood.

I realize that there may be some value in this hand. But for me, hands like this piss me off / tilt me. I really really hate being in situations where I don't "know" the correct play. It makes me feel like I have no business playing. Then I get mad and do stupid stuff. And that stupid stuff hurts my bankroll. I also hate losing hands where I had the "best" hand on 3rd. I also hate losing big pots (which might happen if 4 or 5 people play). So I avoid hands like these, mostly for my sanity.

Thankfully, my hatred of not knowing what the best play is will often make me grab a HH and think through a hand in great detail. Doing this has greatly helped my play. And it has allowed me to play in more situation with confidence.

Re: Party 2-4
 

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That my friends is right out of 7csfap.

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7CSFAP doesn't assume such a big BI.

Re: Party 2-4
 

Hello,

You do understand the concept that if you know your raise wont get the desired results ( limiting field ), you are just making the pot all that much bigger.. therebey enticing your opponents to play much more correctly on the later streets?

Just something to think about.

I am not saying don't raise. but with tens it is suicide. Aces and Kings.. fine.. Tens needs to be played much more creatively and cautiously in these games, because they are about as good as deuces in a multi-way looossy-loose game.

CJ

Re: Party 2-4
 

We all have our irrational areas, but I have no big problem limping my tens then folding them on fourth for one bet -- even though I might be folding the best hand. I think you are giving up too much by just folding because you don't like the way this hand (or others like small three flushes with two of your suit dead, or live 89T str8s) plays.

I do remember a 3-6 hand i played at your table months ago where you raised a pretty obvious made flush on sixth street (and got three bet) with Aces up -- perhaps an example of the getting pissed off when you get run down.

But good players will get run down more often than bad players, because our starting hand requirements are higher. In the end, your long-term results should be positive -- you just have to accept that the short-term can be a bitch, and focus on making correct plays in each situation, I think.

CJ -- July 29 is looking like a possible poker day. I'll let you know!

Re: Party 2-4
 

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your raise wont get the desired results ( limiting field ),

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It may not make anyone who already limped fold, but it may prevent another limper.


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therebey enticing your opponents to play much more correctly on the later streets?

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This goes both ways. If thier chasing is now correct because the pot is bigger, my chasing will be correct if 4th puts me behind. It will be very hard to play T4T correctly on every street in a small pot. There are too many places to fold too much or give too many free cards. So if raising now makes my play easier on later streets great. I extract some value and it becomes harder for me to make a huge error later.


7CSFAP also assumes a bigger ante. So bigger ante plus cheaper BI spells MUCH better immediate odds. So limping make much more sense.



If I limp, how do I play from that point on if I don't hit a T?
-If people hit overcards and bet at me I ?
-If people hit a few suited cards I ?
-If they make an open pair?
-If they show a straighty type board?

And when I do hit a T I might not get any action because it pairs my door card.

Re: Party 2-4
 

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have no big problem limping my tens then folding them on fourth for one bet

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This is something I can't do.

Re: Party 2-4
 

Hello Again,

I really did miss these spirited debates on the forum. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The original post was not a 'specific hand in mind post', so we can't really analyze some of your questions here.

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It may not make anyone who already limped fold, but it may prevent another limper.



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Fine, raise if you are in early position. I wont disagree here. but in general ( like I said originally ) raising later with tens in these games is suicide.

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It will be very hard to play T4T correctly on every street in a small pot.

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Actually if you are a good player, it is relatively easy to play that hand, and I sure as hell want a small pot when I am holding it. Since when do we want bigger pots with any pair type hand?

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7CSFAP also assumes a bigger ante. So bigger ante plus cheaper BI spells MUCH better immediate odds. So limping make much more sense.


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That book was written well before the creation of most of these insane high-ante low limit games. but the CONCEPTS are the same. It really boils down to percentages. What is the ante size in relation to future bet size?? Nothing about actual dollar amounts. The players who can adjust to this are the winners, the ones who can't are the losers. It is really that simple. ( the bring-in size does create other issues.. but I don't want to write a novel here )


CJ

Re: Party 2-4
 

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This is something I can't do

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Why?

So If on 4th an ace bets, a king calls, and whatever else. you are going to call??

Do you like pissing bets away?

CJ

Re: Party 2-4
 

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It really boils down to percentages. What is the ante size in relation to future bet size??

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Yep,
And the 2/4 ante is 1/16 a BB and the BI is 1/4 a BB.

But 7csfap was written assuming a game stucture like the 3/6 game (ante 1/12 and BI 1/6)

Re: Party 2-4
 

Not then no

-but if an Ace bets and its folded to you and you close the action?
-but if a limper with a 6 door card gets an 8 and bets you?
-but if the BI gets an offsuit 9 and bets when the action hits him?

If this hand gets to 4th 4way (all limps)::

~12% of the time one of your opponents will pair his door card. And you will fold.

Damn near everytime someone will get an over card. And this person will lead out most of the time. When that person isn't you how do you react to the bet?

The 4.7% of the time you make your T you probably won't get paid off because the pot is small and no cares to tangle.

Re: Party 2-4
 

Jon, you are way better at math than I am, but I think you are falling victim to one of my biggest mistakes when I play bad -- trying to win pots, not money. LET the loose fish who called with (3A)7 take the pot away from me on fourth when he pairs his door and my split tens don't improve. It's a tiny pot. And I'll have chances to later to find spots to isolate him, even in a loose game.

There's one assumption that's radically wrong in your post -- when I pair my door card I WILL get called, often in two places, even though I double bet. The fact that my opponents do make lots of calling errors is exactly why I limp hands like these. So far, the 2-4 is a real call fest -- as I said at the top, I won two roughly 25BB pots last time I played, when I made pretty obvious flushes against crap for my opponents and got called all the way down in multiple places.