Ethics of Datamining
 

When I mention banned, I just mean whether you think it should be, not whether it is technically feasible.

Also, I did sort of post this in the prophecy thread, but it looks like that one is dead. Am I in trouble for reposting, Citanul?

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

Can you more specifically define "games observed"? Do you mean games that you actually sat and watched, because I think that sometimes this term gets stretched a bit.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I don't see how any of this is unethical. It is the sort of thing that either is or isn't allowed and then is or isn't done. What would perhaps be unethical is if one somehow could generate HHs with complete/perfect information in some way and then datamine that. All the hands shown are public knowledge and available online or in a card room. It seems fine that people can gather (or ignore) such data any way they wish.

However, a slightly more interesting question is who here feels datamining should be against the T&C rules (I'm assuming that the posters here benefit from datamining since we're most likely to be the ones doing it).

Yugoslav

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

Since you really don't observe many hands by actually watching them, let's assume it is the kind where you start some games up and then do something else while they play.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

Just as long as we're not debating the difference between morality and ethics with a philosophy grad.

I'm really more interested in whether people think it is right/wrong, fair/unfair, however you put it, rather than a calculated decision about whether it is +$EV for them or the industry or whatever.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I'm more interested who was the guy who chose "Burn in hell" as his/her answer to second question. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

Something wrong with that.

No one said burn in hell to the 3rd question. (yet)

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I don't have a problem with datamining from games that you have actually played in or observed.

I do have a problem with commercial datamining. I don't want online poker (if it already hasn't) to turn into a case of who has the nicest toys.

I don't use any of that stuff that gives me stats on other players for several reasons:

1) Even though they're legal, I kind of "know" that they're unethical.

2) I don't need them to beat the 11s, 22s, and low level ring games.

3) I don't want to become dependent upon software that I obviously won't have at my disposal when I play live games.

But my general attitude is more "meh" than "burn in hell".

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

Commercial trafficing in data
do not tap on the aquarium kind of thing.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

i voted burn in hell for commercial sharing
yet i used prophecy until i realized how foolish it was

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

The simple solution to stop almost all data mining is Party (and skins) should not write the .hhf files to disk on watched games - there is no need to do this that I can see. At that point the only way to commercially data mine is to share data from games that you have played which most people would not be willing to do because their own style will be exposed.

As long as they enable this functionality I don't see collecting and sharing it as being wrong but I would not be upset if Party eliminates this completely.

Additionally, I think Party should purchase the rights to a limited version of Poker Tracker (or potentially develop their own) and provide this to all members. This provides all members a great tool to improve their game (and contribute more rake) and could be a great value added feature to bring in more customers and would do a pretty good job of creating a perception of a level playing field.

rvg

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I dont use pokertracker, though i will be buying it in sept or so when i go back to uni.

I dont mind people datamining games they are in. I can live with people datamining games they are observing, though obviously id prefer it wasnt common knowledge amongst the fish - if PT, PV, PP and PE (and many of PXs you could imagine, along with GT [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) were ran as a story in say the NY times (which if im not mistaken now has a poker column) then the online poker industry would take quite a hit.

Its ok for people to go online and gamble, knowing they will lose. But when people are trading data amongst each other as well, its become quite a tinderbox. If the story is ran, that is the spark required.

This is currently a problem limited to party and skins, and if it blows up ill welcome the fish to the sites i play, but id kinda prefer it if it didnt.

People ask when the online poker bubble will burst. I think the first pop will be caused by these software aids (poker bots can be thrown in there with them). It will take some good PR from pokerstars (to name just one) to convince people that when they are playing online their, they are only playing people, not people with aides and not people with pokerbots.

-----

So basicly, meh if your observing and burn in hell if your trading the data with others.

Phill

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I believe if you can observe the game, you can datamine. You don't need the application to write the HHs for you. It would be a little harder, but for most people that would just mean downloading some software.

Seems like they could stop allowing you to observe games though.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

The only information (as in hand history, if you want to use pen and paper while watching tables knock yourself out) available to a player should be from games where you play.

Datamining, poker prophecy and PE should be banned. If someone want to argue that PV/PT gametime also should be banned I would understand where they are coming from.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]

Additionally, I think Party should purchase the rights to a limited version of Poker Tracker (or potentially develop their own) and provide this to all members. This provides all members a great tool to improve their game (and contribute more rake) and could be a great value added feature to bring in more customers and would do a pretty good job of creating a perception of a level playing field.


[/ QUOTE ]

bad idea, provide free software to help improve a fish's game and it will not comtribute more to rake.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how any of this is unethical. It is the sort of thing that either is or isn't allowed and then is or isn't done. What would perhaps be unethical is if one somehow could generate HHs with complete/perfect information in some way and then datamine that. All the hands shown are public knowledge and available online or in a card room. It seems fine that people can gather (or ignore) such data any way they wish.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, this poll is too vague, they way it is worded is such that no one should have a problem with any of these questions.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Datamining ... should be banned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really like the idea datamining, but banning anyone who does it is a terrible idea. If party wanted to stop it, they could do it with a simple patch.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I don't know. Maybe you are a lawyer or a philosopher, but plain folk seem to have an idea of whether it is good or bad and can separate that from whether or not it is or should be allowed.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Additionally, I think Party should purchase the rights to a limited version of Poker Tracker (or potentially develop their own) and provide this to all members. This provides all members a great tool to improve their game (and contribute more rake) and could be a great value added feature to bring in more customers and would do a pretty good job of creating a perception of a level playing field.


[/ QUOTE ]

bad idea, provide free software to help improve a fish's game and it will not comtribute more to rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Improving the fish's game will most definately increase rake. If it takes them twice as many hands to bust out then rake is increased. If it makes them think that they are improving then they will be more likely to reload their account. How could that not increase rake???

Almost all of the 60-70K people that are on party poker at any given moment are going to bust out. Giving them tools to make them lose at a slower pace increases the rake and also builds up the players online number making their share holders happy.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe if you can observe the game, you can datamine. You don't need the application to write the HHs for you. It would be a little harder, but for most people that would just mean downloading some software.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone know if this is true? Is there a multi-table data mining app that does not require the scraping of a log file? From a programmer's perspective it would seem extremely difficult to be able to analyze pixels on the screen to identify real values through some kind of OCR type technique and put together a hand from that... If that does exist then stopping this would be very difficult...

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

I don't really know how it is done, but the site sends your computer data and another program can read this data, not just how it is rendered.

I haven't used playerview or gametime or whatever, but they seem know what is going on at your tables.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

i thought this thread was called "ethics of damnation."

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

But my ethics are based on value. It is only right for all parties to do what is best for them(all things considered, in the long term).

Maybe this question asks the marginal value of the emotional return from each of these actions. Personally, none of these things bother me.

John

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this question asks the marginal value of the emotional return from each of these actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, something like that, I guess.

Khern's emotional return = not bothered. Got it.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

peachy
burn
burn
burn

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

is it unethical that when i play in a cash game that i likely have a higher knowledge of the game and understanding of what is going on that most of the others at the table? is it unethical that some of them may not have the intelligence to gather said data even if they tried?

is it unethical that people buy and sell stocks with much, much less information that institutional investors and others who use these same types of techniques for the markets?

the same goes for sports, education and any other competitive arena.

i say 'meh' accross the board.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

well, in terms of stocks you have heard of insider trading, right?


those are kind of apples and oranges.


btw, sorry i couldnt come play last saturday. had some school stuff to work out. that place on 38th is nowhere near as nice as players club was, but the games are still good.

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

This brings up an interesting thought.

Although PP would never agree to this. It would be interesting if they disclosed what tools various players used, instead of just banning them.

Using the stock trading analogy. It's not illegal to go onto a news program and pump a stock and then make a trade as long as you disclose your position.

What if there were little icons next to each user that showed that someone uses PT, PP, etc.. etc.? Would that help even the playing field?

Re: Ethics of Datamining
 

i'm not really looking for a level playing field [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]