moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

fossilman has a darn great game where as monkeymaker has not improved anywhere to stay on top was it pure luck and smaller field?still a great accomplisment but come on 7-2!!fossilman has a better chance of being on a main event final wsop table again .good luck champ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]your game is a pleasure to watch [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

This has been hashed to death but the general consensus is that Raymer is a very good, if not great player, while Moneymaker is rather mediocre.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Truly Fossilman's style is very boring to watch. From what I seen, he gathers chips by pushing people out of the pot. Its not fun seeing a player go all in. I am not saying its a bad style, its just a boring style. I get it, you push, they fold, you win.

Now Farha, Ivey, Flack, Marcel, Dan Neg all have a style that is truly a pleasure to watch. They want to see a lot of flops, and they want to outplay their opponent without pushing a whole bunch of chips into the pot. No wonder they all made ESPN featured tables.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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Truly Fossilman's style is very boring to watch. From what I seen, he gathers chips by pushing people out of the pot. Its not fun seeing a player go all in. I am not saying its a bad style, its just a boring style. I get it, you push, they fold, you win.

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You gathered this from ...? Oh, maybe you watched last years final table and thought the ten or so hands Greg played were representative of the thousands of hands he played that tournament alone?

I'll leave this to others to elaborate.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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the general consensus is that Raymer is a very good, if not great player

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I must have missed that final approved vote.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Nothing wrong with bluffing with 72. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Sometimes you have to play the situation and follow your judgment not the cards.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Found this on an ESPN chat with Robert Williamson III.

Dave (Philadelphia): Do you see Raymer, Moneymaker, or Varkonyi ever winning another bracelet?

Robert Williamson III: I think Moneymaker's game has come a long way. He is a solid player. I don't think he plays that many events anymore. Raymer plays a lot of events but I think even he would tell you that he rose to the occassion that year .. but is he consistently going to win? No. If Moneymaker spent more time playing, he could be a consistent winner.

Williamson Chat

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Fossilman is obviously better.
Moneymaker sucked out so many times, especially at the last few tables or against good players it was almost embarrasing. He made the final table only because he sucked out big time against Phil Ivey. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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Robert Williamson III: I think Moneymaker's game has come a long way. He is a solid player. I don't think he plays that many events anymore. Raymer plays a lot of events but I think even he would tell you that he rose to the occassion that year .. but is he consistently going to win? No. If Moneymaker spent more time playing, he could be a consistent winner.


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All that most of us have to go on is what we see on TV and read in the press. Based on that, my impression has been just the opposite.

Based on what I have seen, Greg's play has been solid, but not world class. Moneymaker has not shown anything on TV since the WSOP.

Based on rewatching the 2003 WSOP, my impression is that Moneymaker is an instinctive, street-smart player who played over his head in the ME. My impression of Greg is that he is an analytical student of the game, and that he played a solid game in the 2004 ME, and got lucky. That is not to say that he is a bad player. You have to get lucky to win the ME. I just don't think that he can play at the same level as Doyle or Lederer or Ivey or Greenstein.

Williamson's remark about Moneymaker improving strikes me as odd. Again, just an impression based on media exposure. My impression of Moneymaker is that he does not read and think about the game enough, he relies too much on instinct and playing experience. He doesn't need to play more, he needs to study the game. I think that Raymer will improve faster than Moneymaker will, because he continues to be a student of the game. I think Chris has peaked.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

You seem to forget on the hand where Moneymaker "sucked out", his AQ flopped a set, and Ivey had to get extremely lucky to hit his 2 outer on the turn. It was a great hand, but saying he sucked out would not be fair, since it is only part of the hand.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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You seem to forget on the hand where Moneymaker "sucked out", his AQ flopped a set, and Ivey had to get extremely lucky to hit his 2 outer on the turn. It was a great hand, but saying he sucked out would not be fair, since it is only part of the hand.

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Reasoing like that can also turn it back on Moneymaker sucking out on Ivey saying that Ivey actually had the best hand preflop.

I don't think Ivey called on the flop hoping for a 9 on the turn. I think he called hoping Moneymaker was bluffing with AK/AJ or worse and hoping to take the pot away from him on turn. I think Ivey would have won 2003 if it wasn't for that hand (and maybe a bit beause of the set of sevens vs KK before that).

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Raymer had a lot of tv hands that made the cut that, simply, left me thinking 'could I have ever moved in with that...' .. which basically indicates how much confidence he had in knowing his opponent would not be able to call (even though certainly there was a great chance his opponent was far ahead in the hand)... obviously, there is some hidden luck in that too... but his ability to read his opponent's skill level (which very much factors into a call) is enjoyable.

As for MM, I'd think it'd be great. You have a WSOP braclet, you have a great last name, and you have everyone in the world pretty much underestimating your play... sounds like a sure-fire way to play a lot of poker and make a lot of money.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Found this on an ESPN chat with Robert Williamson III.

Dave (Philadelphia): Do you see Raymer, Moneymaker, or Varkonyi ever winning another bracelet?

Robert Williamson III: I think Moneymaker's game has come a long way. He is a solid player. I don't think he plays that many events anymore. Raymer plays a lot of events but I think even he would tell you that he rose to the occassion that year .. but is he consistently going to win? No. If Moneymaker spent more time playing, he could be a consistent winner.

Williamson Chat

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The most telling part of Williamson's answer isn't what he said about Raymer and Moneymaker. It's who he didn't mention.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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Truly Fossilman's style is very boring to watch. From what I seen, he gathers chips by pushing people out of the pot. Its not fun seeing a player go all in. I am not saying its a bad style, its just a boring style. I get it, you push, they fold, you win.

Now Farha, Ivey, Flack, Marcel, Dan Neg all have a style that is truly a pleasure to watch. They want to see a lot of flops, and they want to outplay their opponent without pushing a whole bunch of chips into the pot. No wonder they all made ESPN featured tables.

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Fossilman was on the featured table on Day 1a.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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Fossilman was on the featured table on Day 1a.

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With deeper stacks, and before he's built such a massive chip advantage, I'll wager this year we'll see some interesting post flop play from GR/FM.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

I'll say Moneymaker is a wee bit better than mediocre, since he has made a WPT final table as well. However, with the final table he had this year in a preliminary event, as well as one or two other cashes, Raymer seems to be decidedly better for now.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

well i hope MM can return to that high level of play again,good wishes and hope to see him again in a final table.was there a secret in rounders that got him there [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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I'll say Moneymaker is a wee bit better than mediocre, since he has made a WPT final table as well. However, with the final table he had this year in a preliminary event, as well as one or two other cashes, Raymer seems to be decidedly better for now.

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ahem...Moneymaker finished second in a wpt event. let's talk about who else that's won a wsopme has finished as high in a wpt event. i can think of brunson...yeah, that's about it.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Well, I've seen Mortensen win a WPT if I'm not mistaken. Plus ME winners are at least on the WPT often, Scotty Nguyen, Hellmuth, Ferguson have all been on it.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

Raymer's performance over the last year has indaicted that he is amongst the top tournament players in the world right now regardless of what anyone says. In addition to winning the WSOP last year, he has already made a final table this year at the WSOP and made numerous other cashes where he was close to making another big score. (WPT championship, etc...) With his chipstack now, he is a very formidable force in this years ME. Moneymaker was very lucky to win the Main Event, but is now an above average player and his second place finish finish at shooting stars halps affirm this. He doesn't play very many events, so this is why he hasnt made any big splashes latley.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

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Truly Fossilman's style is very boring to watch. From what I seen, he gathers chips by pushing people out of the pot. Its not fun seeing a player go all in. I am not saying its a bad style, its just a boring style. I get it, you push, they fold, you win.

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F***ing clueless.

How anyone can post such tripe on a 2+2 forum is beyond me. You only need to look through the archives to see your post is ridiculous.

Re: moneymaker/fossilman who\'s the real deal??
 

I think Raymer is a far better player than Moneymaker, just based on hands that I've seen. I've seen MM make a lot more mistakes than Raymer.

I don't think either is in the same league as some of the truly great players.