What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

I was really confused about how much to bet. What's the right ammount, and especially why? The presence of UTG+1, who doesn't strike me as a donk, is what was really throwing me off. If only the short stack were there, i'd just get him all in by rasiing half his stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) converter

SB (t18134)
Hero (t28286)
UTG (t10299)
UTG+1 (t20498)
MP1 (t19762)
MP2 (t28863)
MP3 (t8380)
CO (t9211)
Button (t18466)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1600</font>, UTG+1 calls t1600, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to ... ?</font>

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

U have to attack here. going all in and winning the 4400$ or playing the UTG for his 10,000( i dout highly the utg+1 would call even if the utg didn't).

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

With almost 5000 in the pot I think that 5000 is a good re-raise. I would highly doubt UTG+1 is coming along even if UTG just flat calls.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
U have to attack here. going all in and winning the 4400$ or playing the UTG for his 10,000( i dout highly the utg+1 would call even if the utg didn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 28k in my stack. A push would be a huge 20k overbet, and seems like overkill. UTG+1 is a danger in this pot. If he has AA, after the smoke clears I'll be left with only 8k, in the red zone. There must be some smaller ammount to raise that will accomplish the same goal as a push, but without the downside risk.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

I think the correct reraise is a little more than 5k. You certainly want UTG to come along (hopefully he doesn't have aces), but you also want to lose UTG+1. Say UTG has QQ same suits as you (optimal situation). If UTG+1 has, say JJ or AQ, he may overcall if UTG just calls a reraise of 5k. Think about it from UTG+1's perspective. You raise to 5k, UTG calls, UTG+1 is now getting about 3:1 with implied odds to stack you with certain flops. No brainer with JJ or AQ. you definitely don't want two opponents against KK. I reraise to 7k and hope I'm not up against aces...

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

I would triple it to 4800. UTG only has 10k and will likely push or fold, and UTG+1 with 20k won't have the implied odds for a loose call. But your raise is not SO big as to scare off all the action. If you raise less (to like 3200) then the pot will be laying them such nice odds that they have to tag along. If you raise a ton (to like 10k) you're just killing your action with a fat overbet. 4800 feels right.

Kings

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would triple it to 4800. UTG only has 10k and will likely push or fold, and UTG+1 with 20k won't have the implied odds for a loose call. But your raise is not SO big as to scare off all the action. If you raise less (to like 3200) then the pot will be laying them such nice odds that they have to tag along. If you raise a ton (to like 10k) you're just killing your action with a fat overbet. 4800 feels right.

Kings

[/ QUOTE ]

Feels right to me.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

I would raise to T6000.

This will prevent UTG from reraising with a push (it will be an underraise) and it will make it easier for UTG+1 to call without fearing a rereaise. I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

When the action comes around to you there is 3600 in the pot.
if you raise to 4800 your giving UTG 2.6-1 odds and he might call here which would make it an automatic call for UTG+1 because of pot odds. so to make sure he doesnt call, you want to reraise a little mroe than that. a reraise to about 8000 would be good. giving UTG less than 2-1 odds to call, he should fold. then UTG+1 can only call with AA,KK,QQ,AK. i think he would throw away jacks here if you think hes solid.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

Once again, you give a very thoughtful, rational line.

The probelem is, you still are giving too much credit to your opponents.

Do you really think that 50% of your opponents
1.) know the rule
2.) Are actively making decisions with that in mind.

This is an example of where the 'perfect' play is probably costing you money.

I think the majority of online players will call 10K all-in reraise from the original raiser the same % of time regardless of wether you bet 4800 or 6000. So, when they call, you are costing yourself a chance to get all of the money in when you bet 6K.

If I read the CCer as a very good attentive player, I would make your play. But against your average onliner, you will cost yourself money with subtle plays like this, you usually just need to give them enough rope to hang themselves.

FWIW, I do think that this is a very good line against good players, but definitely sub-optimal against an average player.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When the action comes around to you there is 3600 in the pot.
if you raise to 4800 your giving UTG 2.6-1 odds and he might call here which would make it an automatic call for UTG+1 because of pot odds. so to make sure he doesnt call, you want to reraise a little mroe than that. a reraise to about 8000 would be good. giving UTG less than 2-1 odds to call, he should fold. then UTG+1 can only call with AA,KK,QQ,AK. i think he would throw away jacks here if you think hes solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

1.) stop reading Tom Mcevoy articles, they will turn your brain to mush.

2.) Why would I EVER want him to fold JJ?

3.) When they call with 2.6-1 odds, are they making the correct play?

4.) If you are betting to get them to fold, why do you need pocket kings to do it?

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1.) stop reading Tom Mcevoy articles, they will turn your brain to mush.

2.) Why would I EVER want him to fold JJ?

3.) When they call with 2.6-1 odds, are they making the correct play?

4.) If you are betting to get them to fold, why do you need pocket kings to do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the big blind. So he would not have position.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the big blind. So he would not have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell ever wants to play a high pair against two players rather than one?

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You raise to 5k, UTG calls, UTG+1 is now getting about 3:1 with implied odds to stack you with certain flops. No brainer with JJ or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi.

I'm struggling to grasp why UTG+1 should call with AQ here. I'm not saying it's wrong (because I'm not experienced enough to say that). If I was UTG+1 I would fold here because after the reraise by the big stack in the BB I would not even be sure that I wanted to hit an ace, i.e. could be up against AK. Am I too tight? Please make me understand why I need to call with AQ if that's the correct play.

Cheers.

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

Why would you want Jacks or Queens to fold? I would reraise
probably about 3to 4x the pot. If I felt a push would get
both players to call than I would push. If I am against AA
well there's a new tourney in an hour.

Bruce

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

In retrospect, it seems like I put a little more in than I needed to. Then again, if I had only put in the 10k, I would still be committed to the pot even ifg UTG+1 came along. No?

By the way, the converter didn't say so, but the level was 800/400 + 50a. So, there was 1650 in the pot before the cards were dealt.

Here's the hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) converter

SB (t18134)
Hero (t28286)
UTG (t10299)
UTG+1 (t20498)
MP1 (t19762)
MP2 (t28863)
MP3 (t8380)
CO (t9211)
Button (t18466)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1600</font>, UTG+1 calls t1600, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t12000</font>, UTG calls t8649 (All-In), UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (t24199) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t24199) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t24199) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t24199

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh Ks (one pair, kings).
UTG has Jd Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t24199. </font>

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the big blind. So he would not have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell ever wants to play a high pair against two players rather than one?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I can get the chips in preflop , would chose 2 callers with KK in all but extreme situations

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the big blind. So he would not have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell ever wants to play a high pair against two players rather than one?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I can get the chips in preflop , would chose 2 callers with KK in all but extreme situations

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have pokerstove here at work, but it seems like KK vs. two ranges of hands 99-AA, AK, AQ, AJ would deprove quite a bit...

for example, KK vs. JJ is 4:1, obv but KK vs. JJ vs. AQ seems like it would be much worse, no?

Re: What\'s the correct bet size here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the big blind. So he would not have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell ever wants to play a high pair against two players rather than one?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I can get the chips in preflop , would chose 2 callers with KK in all but extreme situations

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have pokerstove here at work, but it seems like KK vs. two ranges of hands 99-AA, AK, AQ, AJ would deprove quite a bit...

for example, KK vs. JJ is 4:1, obv but KK vs. JJ vs. AQ seems like it would be much worse, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, they get worse when you add a 2nd caller (especially when AQ has more equity than JJ). But you also add more money in the pot. So instead of looking at the % of time you win, try looking at the Chip E.V.