Moneymaker implosion?
 

Donkeymaker busted out after pushing all in with 72h from the small blind.

Um, what?

Was he just trying to get on tv? If he bluffs with that, it would be good publicity, but come on dude.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

He was clearly trying to steal it, you can't say it was a terrible move without seeing all the factors involved.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Donkeymaker

[/ QUOTE ]
how many bracelets do you have?

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If he bluffs with that,

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you bluff with AA??

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

He was short-stacked and in the SB.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

If he bluffs the cards are basically meaningless. Whether it is 96 or 72.. not much difference

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He was clearly trying to steal it, you can't say it was a terrible move without seeing all the factors involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah we can only call it a bad move if an amateur does it. And if an amateur wins with 7-2 hes a bad player but if a pro does it,he had a good read and pot odds.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was clearly trying to steal it, you can't say it was a terrible move without seeing all the factors involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah we can only call it a bad move if an amateur does it. And if an amateur wins with 7-2 hes a bad player but if a pro does it,he had a good read and pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you play SNGs, you obviously must not be very good. When you get shortstacked do you wait for a premium hand and if it never comes you get blinded out? Without seeing all the hand specifics, you can't really criticize the play. If I'm getting shortstacked and it's folded to me in the SB, I would take my chances with nearly any 2.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

WHen has an amateur ever been criticized for trying to steal the blinds with a bluff?

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

well, no. but i get your point.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

From this post I can assume you suck at poker. However on this higher level tourneys,people probably have wider calling ranges than in SNGs, but Im sure you brain didnt make it here, Im sure moneymaker made sure the player was kinda noob before trying his mathematically correct play .( moneymaker didnt hope the guy would fold, he figured a calling range for his oponent and then he thought the range was tight enough, was he right? well never know since AK is basically on every calling range with short stacks.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If he bluffs with that,

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you bluff with AA??

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he bluffs the cards are basically meaningless. Whether it is 96 or 72.. not much difference

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there is a considerable difference. Just in case he gets called, 96 or maybe T7, J6 etc. actually have some better chances of becoming the best hand. Maybe bluff with Q2 or K4o. At least it's better than 72.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

I'm pretty sure his FE here was pretty high. It's not that bad of a move, just unlucky to run into AK or whatever the BB had.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he bluffs the cards are basically meaningless. Whether it is 96 or 72.. not much difference

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there is a considerable difference. Just in case he gets called, 96 or maybe T7, J6 etc. actually have some better chances of becoming the best hand. Maybe bluff with Q2 or K4o. At least it's better than 72.

[/ QUOTE ]

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Kd 1097770 64.11 605383 35.35 9151 0.53 0.644
7s 2s 605383 35.35 1097770 64.11 9151 0.53 0.356

As Kd 1051348 61.40 652751 38.12 8205 0.48 0.616
9s 6s 652751 38.12 1051348 61.40 8205 0.48 0.384

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

Eh, I see what you mean. I ran a few other combinations of two higher cards versus two lower ones and they all mostly came out about 65/35.

If you have at least one high card and it's higher than your opponent, HU you are in pretty good shape though. For instance, K2o vs. QJs: K2 is a 53/46 favorite. A2o vs KQs is 54/45. I guess if your getting squeezed, any Ax would be one of the best hands to push with, any Kx probably next best.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, I see what you mean. I ran a few other combinations of two higher cards versus two lower ones and they all mostly came out about 65/35.

If you have at least one high card and it's higher than your opponent, HU you are in pretty good shape though. For instance, K2o vs. QJs: K2 is a 53/46 favorite. A2o vs KQs is 54/45. I guess if your getting squeezed, any Ax would be one of the best hands to push with, any Kx probably next best.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you consider that highcard+lowcard hands are easily dominated. If the player had a tightish calling range, I would rather have 64s than K2o for example.



this may be a VERY unrealistic range but you get the idea


3,246,528,384 games 6.500 secs 499,465,905 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 71.0189 % [ 00.70 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo }
Hand 2: 28.9811 % [ 00.28 00.01 ] { K2o }


---

1,150,668,288 games 3.110 secs 369,989,803 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 66.2210 % [ 00.66 00.00 ] { AA-22, AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo }
Hand 2: 33.7790 % [ 00.33 00.00 ] { 64s }

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
From this post I can assume you suck at poker. However on this higher level tourneys,people probably have wider calling ranges than in SNGs, but Im sure you brain didnt make it here, Im sure moneymaker made sure the player was kinda noob before trying his mathematically correct play .( moneymaker didnt hope the guy would fold, he figured a calling range for his oponent and then he thought the range was tight enough, was he right? well never know since AK is basically on every calling range with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I'm not a great poker player. I don't understand why he would do that. I'd also forgotten that Moneymaker is a posterboy for the Poker Everyman and that I'm apparantly only allowed to dislike Hellmuth.

My REAL point, which one guy in the thread said he got, was that Moneymaker seems to be kinda teetering in his life. The cardplayer video of him made him seem like an old star trek actor charging kids ten bucks for an autograph.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

How many Donkeys have you made? One would wager Chris Moneymaker made more donkeys than dollars when he won the WSOP.

Of course one could argue that they were already donkeys and Moneymaker just lead them to the promised land, but Donkeyleader isn't in his last name.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From this post I can assume you suck at poker. However on this higher level tourneys,people probably have wider calling ranges than in SNGs, but Im sure you brain didnt make it here, Im sure moneymaker made sure the player was kinda noob before trying his mathematically correct play .( moneymaker didnt hope the guy would fold, he figured a calling range for his oponent and then he thought the range was tight enough, was he right? well never know since AK is basically on every calling range with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I'm not a great poker player. I don't understand why he would do that. I'd also forgotten that Moneymaker is a posterboy for the Poker Everyman and that I'm apparantly only allowed to dislike Hellmuth.

My REAL point, which one guy in the thread said he got, was that Moneymaker seems to be kinda teetering in his life. The cardplayer video of him made him seem like an old star trek actor charging kids ten bucks for an autograph.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see how we were supposed to get this point at all from your OP.

which, by the way, was completely wrong. nothing wrong with bluffing with any two cards with one player left to act.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many Donkeys have you made? One would wager Chris Moneymaker made more donkeys than dollars when he won the WSOP.

Of course one could argue that they were already donkeys and Moneymaker just lead them to the promised land, but Donkeyleader isn't in his last name.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a side note, DonkeyLover might be a cool screen name to have. Or maybe DonkeyHoetee.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From this post I can assume you suck at poker. However on this higher level tourneys,people probably have wider calling ranges than in SNGs, but Im sure you brain didnt make it here, Im sure moneymaker made sure the player was kinda noob before trying his mathematically correct play .( moneymaker didnt hope the guy would fold, he figured a calling range for his oponent and then he thought the range was tight enough, was he right? well never know since AK is basically on every calling range with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I'm not a great poker player. I don't understand why he would do that. I'd also forgotten that Moneymaker is a posterboy for the Poker Everyman and that I'm apparantly only allowed to dislike Hellmuth.

My REAL point, which one guy in the thread said he got, was that Moneymaker seems to be kinda teetering in his life. The cardplayer video of him made him seem like an old star trek actor charging kids ten bucks for an autograph.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see how we were supposed to get this point at all from your OP.

which, by the way, was completely wrong. nothing wrong with bluffing with any two cards with one player left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't agree with that, it's a pretty big overstatement to say "nothing wrong with bluffing with any two with one player left to act"...it's a heck of a lot better to wait for e.g. a jack high to do it, because if you get called you really want to have a shot of having at least one overcard to your opp's lower card (for the obvious math reasons already discussed). That's why you never hear of people busting out of major events with seven deuce...they picked a better spot than a seven high. So, that's why it's interesting that mm did it.

btw, good line about the star trek actor charging ten bucks an autograph, nh other guy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[quote
i dont see how we were supposed to get this point at all from your OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also suck at writing. My bad. At least I'm taking the flames like a man.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[quote

That's why you never hear of people busting out of major events with seven deuce...they picked a better spot than a seven high. So, that's why it's interesting that mm did it.



[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, which is why it struck me as funny to think, "what if he did that as a publicity stunt, and it backfired?" yeah, yeah, im sure his math was correct and I suck at poker and yada yada. But it's still funny to think about.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

Suited, not easily dominated by regular calling ranges, shortstack, one player left to act, possibly some FE = allin.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Suited, not easily dominated by regular calling ranges, shortstack, one player left to act, possibly some FE = allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess if your getting squeezed, any Ax would be one of the best hands to push with,

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with that is several of the hands likely to call a shortstack push contain A's. i.e. - AA, AK, AQ.

Ax is in big trouble then and you're better off with two little live ones.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My REAL point, which one guy in the thread said he got, was that Moneymaker seems to be kinda teetering in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is he decided to become a pro poker player without becoming a winning poker player, first. So now he has to become a winning player, but he's the ex-champ and he probably doesn't even realize that he's not that good. So he signs autograph's and writes more books.

Not that different than any has been actor or athlete.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is several of the hands likely to call a shortstack push contain A's. i.e. - AA, AK, AQ.

Ax is in big trouble then and you're better off with two little live ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your stack is too small you are likely to get called by anything, so having an Ace is much preferable.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From this post I can assume you suck at poker. However on this higher level tourneys,people probably have wider calling ranges than in SNGs, but Im sure you brain didnt make it here, Im sure moneymaker made sure the player was kinda noob before trying his mathematically correct play .( moneymaker didnt hope the guy would fold, he figured a calling range for his oponent and then he thought the range was tight enough, was he right? well never know since AK is basically on every calling range with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I'm not a great poker player. I don't understand why he would do that. I'd also forgotten that Moneymaker is a posterboy for the Poker Everyman and that I'm apparantly only allowed to dislike Hellmuth.

My REAL point, which one guy in the thread said he got, was that Moneymaker seems to be kinda teetering in his life. The cardplayer video of him made him seem like an old star trek actor charging kids ten bucks for an autograph.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see how we were supposed to get this point at all from your OP.

which, by the way, was completely wrong. nothing wrong with bluffing with any two cards with one player left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't agree with that, it's a pretty big overstatement to say "nothing wrong with bluffing with any two with one player left to act"...it's a heck of a lot better to wait for e.g. a jack high to do it, because if you get called you really want to have a shot of having at least one overcard to your opp's lower card (for the obvious math reasons already discussed). That's why you never hear of people busting out of major events with seven deuce...they picked a better spot than a seven high. So, that's why it's interesting that mm did it.

btw, good line about the star trek actor charging ten bucks an autograph, nh other guy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


As has been stated previously, it is often better to push with something like 64s or even 72s than with J8o because your opponent is much less likely to have you dominated, so at least you have 2 live cards and with antes in the pot you are definitely getting the at least 2-1 odds you need against most hands. The only thing you are truly afraid of in this situation, that would make it a bad push, is an overpair to your cards (or 77 but this is less likely anyhow). Its all about the math and the fact that next time you have slightly less total chips pushing into 2 people, assuming you get to open, then through 3, etc...

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

he has'nt improved his game any from what i've seen.did fame took him away and soon to be lost at sea??seems it was all luck that won the WSOP and smaller field at time.unlike fossilman he's the real deal!!what can you say his tell is?????his imediate action when raising????

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

Seriously, you people need to lay off Moneymaker. He would prolly whipe the floor with most of us so quit talking sh*t.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From this post I can assume you suck at poker. However on this higher level tourneys,people probably have wider calling ranges than in SNGs, but Im sure you brain didnt make it here, Im sure moneymaker made sure the player was kinda noob before trying his mathematically correct play .( moneymaker didnt hope the guy would fold, he figured a calling range for his oponent and then he thought the range was tight enough, was he right? well never know since AK is basically on every calling range with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I'm not a great poker player. I don't understand why he would do that. I'd also forgotten that Moneymaker is a posterboy for the Poker Everyman and that I'm apparantly only allowed to dislike Hellmuth.

My REAL point, which one guy in the thread said he got, was that Moneymaker seems to be kinda teetering in his life. The cardplayer video of him made him seem like an old star trek actor charging kids ten bucks for an autograph.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see how we were supposed to get this point at all from your OP.

which, by the way, was completely wrong. nothing wrong with bluffing with any two cards with one player left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't agree with that, it's a pretty big overstatement to say "nothing wrong with bluffing with any two with one player left to act"...it's a heck of a lot better to wait for e.g. a jack high to do it, because if you get called you really want to have a shot of having at least one overcard to your opp's lower card (for the obvious math reasons already discussed). That's why you never hear of people busting out of major events with seven deuce...they picked a better spot than a seven high. So, that's why it's interesting that mm did it.

btw, good line about the star trek actor charging ten bucks an autograph, nh other guy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


As has been stated previously, it is often better to push with something like 64s or even 72s than with J8o because your opponent is much less likely to have you dominated, so at least you have 2 live cards and with antes in the pot you are definitely getting the at least 2-1 odds you need against most hands. The only thing you are truly afraid of in this situation, that would make it a bad push, is an overpair to your cards (or 77 but this is less likely anyhow). Its all about the math and the fact that next time you have slightly less total chips pushing into 2 people, assuming you get to open, then through 3, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's why I said jack...ace, king and perhaps queen presents that domination issue...seven is losing to an eight.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

I don't understand why people get on the guy, he seems like a nice guy (I have not read his book so if hes a jerk in that ignore this). I played a 40 dollar qualifier this year and if i had ended up winning 2.5 mill, I would quit my job ( ok you got me, I'd quit looking for a job) to play poker also, and believe me I'm way worse then he is.

Did Moneymaker slap your grandmother or something?

Ken

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why people get on the guy, he seems like a nice guy (I have not read his book so if hes a jerk in that ignore this). I played a 40 dollar qualifier this year and if i had ended up winning 2.5 mill, I would quit my job ( ok you got me, I'd quit looking for a job) to play poker also, and believe me I'm way worse then he is.

Did Moneymaker slap your grandmother or something?

Ken

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also surprised how much people go after this guy. Do any of you realize how many fish he has brought into the game that many of you making a living off of today?

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

You know, the moneymaker bashers really annoy the hell out of me. I was on the table next to moneymaker when he busted. He was a super short stack and was obviously stealing. After he busted I got to listen to a bunch of nits at my table bad mouth him for how stupid he was for going all in with 72o.

I dont get all the hatred for him. Is he the greatest poker player ever? hell no. So what, whog ives a [censored]? He doesnt act like he is, he seems like a pretty modest guy. I think it all just basically boils down to jealousy. They are mad some "clown" won a bracelet, and they cant even make the money in any big tourny. Its the same idiots who table coach good online games. They are just looking for anyoen to listen so they can prove how smart they are, and they they don't infact have really small pee pees.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As has been stated previously, it is often better to push with something like 64s or even 72s than with J8o because your opponent is much less likely to have you dominated, so at least you have 2 live cards and with antes in the pot you are definitely getting the at least 2-1 odds you need against most hands. The only thing you are truly afraid of in this situation, that would make it a bad push, is an overpair to your cards (or 77 but this is less likely anyhow). Its all about the math and the fact that next time you have slightly less total chips pushing into 2 people, assuming you get to open, then through 3, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read this "2 live cards" theory a zillion times but I've never seen any math to suggest it's actually true. I mean, with jack-high you're marginally more likely to be dominated, which costs you EV, but there are also many hands where you pick up EV with jack-high as opposed to rags. I don't know the mathematical answer but I think people are too willing to accept the intuitive one.

The real point in all this is that it's often more about situation and read than the cards you hold, and if you're in such a desperate position that any hand will call you, then you don't exactly have a ton of time to "wait for a better spot."

It's a fallacy to assume great players never raise a 7-high because you rarely see them go out with 7-high. Among other things, a great player is more likely to be correct when he thinks his 7-high won't get called. Focusing on one bust-out hand as the difference between a good player and a mediocre one is very ESPN though.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why people get on the guy, he seems like a nice guy (I have not read his book so if hes a jerk in that ignore this). I played a 40 dollar qualifier this year and if i had ended up winning 2.5 mill, I would quit my job ( ok you got me, I'd quit looking for a job) to play poker also, and believe me I'm way worse then he is.

Did Moneymaker slap your grandmother or something?

Ken

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also surprised how much people go after this guy. Do any of you realize how many fish he has brought into the game that many of you making a living off of today?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. Anyone who shows a good profit playing online the past few years should thank Moneymaker for bringing all the new fish to the pond.

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

Agreed. I suppose one could argue that poker was very much on the rise probably before MM won the WSOP... but MM pretty much sealed the deal for the 'common' player to plop down at a poker table in a casino or online and not feel intimidated or uncomfortable. The poker room always seemed like such a scary place...

Re: Moneymaker implosion?
 

ALL IM GONNA SAY IS NOBODY DOGGED DAN HARRINGTON FOR RAISING WITH 6 HIGH IN THE WSOP FINAL TABLE LAST YEAR? ITS JUST TRYING TO MAKE A PLAY. HE HAPPENED TO RUN INTO A GOOD HAND. HAPPENS. ITS PART OF POKER, BUT JUST CUZ MONEYMAKER DID IT PEOPLE WANT TO HAVE A REASON TO DOG ON HIM. IF FARHA MADE THAT CALL IN THAT WSOP WHERE HE MADE "THE BIG BLUFF" HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED DUMB, BUT WHATEVER. HE IS A FORMER WORLD CHAMP