Who continuation bets?
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

Getting effectivly 8-1, i'm curious how many people bet this flop if the blinds check.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

you can check/call if you want, because you're probably gonna need to see a T to win this one.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

Not I

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I often do and need to stop, at least on a board like that. That said, I think it is good for metagame to sometimes check after raising pf when you HAVE hit your hand, especially against aggressive cc'ers. Nothing like c/ring those jackasses and using their aggression against them.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

not with 4 players, without a read

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I bet here.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

Check/call, check/fold unimproved the turn. A C/R is an option if you have weak tight oppenents and they will give you a free river card as well. But that requires some good knowledge of your oppenents. Betting out is just plain silly.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of. Someone here has an ace, and they ain't folding.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of. Someone here has an ace, and they ain't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]But betting gives you an idea of who you are ahead of, and where you stand in the hand. I donno, I am probably wrong about betting here, but it is kind of standard...edit: for me

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of. Someone here has an ace, jack, eight, KQ, or QT , and they ain't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of. Someone here has an ace, and they ain't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]But betting gives you an idea of who you are ahead of, and where you stand in the hand. I donno, I am probably wrong about betting here, but it is kind of standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if it is standard. If it is, it shouldn't be.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
jack, eight

[/ QUOTE ] I am pretty sure both of these would be folded by most players.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I think it's close. If noone hit an A or J... the pot is likely yours....and with 2 peeps have already shown weakness taking the pot down with one flop bet looks very enticing with those odds......however it maybe pretty unrealistic to fold out all 3.

If you get button to fold flop and calls from blinds...you can likely have a free turn card, where you MAY have up to 10 outs on the river.... but I know this is optimistic as well.

I've probably played it both ways.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of. Someone here has an ace, and they ain't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]But betting gives you an idea of who you are ahead of, and where you stand in the hand. I donno, I am probably wrong about betting here, but it is kind of standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if it is standard. If it is, it shouldn't be.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, I meant for me.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting out is just plain silly.


[/ QUOTE ] You don't think betting has fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of. Someone here has an ace, and they ain't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]But betting gives you an idea of who you are ahead of, and where you stand in the hand. I donno, I am probably wrong about betting here, but it is kind of standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if it is standard. If it is, it shouldn't be.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, I meant for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, and I've gotta stop.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. People will fold pp on a board like this.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone here has an ace, and they ain't folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty likely that someone has a pair they aren't folding. I think assuming there is an ace out is weak tight.

I don't think a bet is horrible. The odds you give yourself plus the 4 out equity + the rainbow board make it reasonably favorable.

Krishan

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jack, eight

[/ QUOTE ] I am pretty sure both of these would be folded by most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not very likely considering they cold called an UTG raise.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jack, eight

[/ QUOTE ] I am pretty sure both of these would be folded by most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

without debating the merits of betting and calculating whether or not we actually care if they fold these hands, I find that they will very rarely fold those hands

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jack, eight

[/ QUOTE ] I am pretty sure both of these would be folded by most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

without debating the merits of betting and calculating whether or not we actually care if they fold these hands, I find that they will very rarely fold those hands

[/ QUOTE ]For all they know, it would be a mistake for them to call. wouldn't it? BTW, I am just trying to generate controversy and a good discussion.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You are likely folding only the hands that you are already ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. People will fold pp on a board like this.



[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but the guy with 77 has his hand hovering over the fold button and my hand has no SD value anyway. I'd like to see the turn for free here if I can, as I doubt I can win the pot with a bet with so many opponents.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For all they know, it would be a mistake for them to call. wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they were really worried about mistakes they wouldn't of cold called in the first place. These are the opponents that don't even realize you can make a mistake.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

IMO, betting is the best line:
1. You might be able to pick up the pot with a single bet
2. if MP1 folds and the blinds call you can take a free river.
3 You have an okay draw, and your K and Q may still be worth something if you spike a pair.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

nah I'm totally down with that, I just find that no one ever worries about drawing dead, improving but losing, closing the action, etc. it's just "hmm I can make two pair or trips". I'm still not sure enough of some of the intangibles (wanting to call a bet anyway, folding people out, etc) to comment on the correctness or incorrectness of betting. I just wanted to guide the discussion in the direction of no one ever folding a pir, cause I find they they rearely do. I agree with the person who posted that ppl can fold a pocket pair here

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I felt this hand was interesting and i'm glad there is some controversy regarding it. Here are some key things to think about.

1.) What better hands (Medium PP's can we fold with this bet)
2.) Will we get raised by medium ace here?
3.) If i check and there is one bet, am i going to call anyway to chase, getting only around 9-1?

Here was my thinking at the time. Since i was not 3 bet preflop, a big ace was unlikely, i can't see someone having better then A-8 to A-10 here, although some players would have just called with AJ preflop i guess. Therefore, i am probably not getting raised all that often on this flop by most passives at 5-10. If we think we are getting raised, then betting is clearly wrong. So if a medium will just call my bet, but bet if i checked to them, it seemed like a good idea to bet for folding equity, to keep the lead in the hand, and to figure out where i am at. Any further thoughts?

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I felt this hand was interesting and i'm glad there is some controversy regarding it. Here are some key things to think about.

1.) What better hands (Medium PP's can we fold with this bet)
2.) Will we get raised by medium ace here?
3.) If i check and there is one bet, am i going to call anyway to chase, getting only around 9-1?

Here was my thinking at the time. Since i was not 3 bet preflop, a big ace was unlikely, i can't see someone having better then A-8 to A-10 here, although some players would have just called with AJ preflop i guess. Therefore, i am probably not getting raised all that often on this flop by most passives at 5-10. If we think we are getting raised, then betting is clearly wrong. So if a medium will just call my bet, but bet if i checked to them, it seemed like a good idea to bet for folding equity, to keep the lead in the hand, and to figure out where i am at. Any further thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO if you DON'T bet, someone will and thus knock out the guy with 77. If no one bets, then the guy with 77 gets a free chance to spike a set, but that isn't the end of the world at worse than 20:1. What does suck though, is getting raised here when you likely could have seen the turn for 1 bet or even free.

I bet
 

I usually would in this spot. I essentially autobet w/ 2 opponents and usually check w/ 4 if I miss. Against 3 I like to bet if I plan on calling a bet but not if I want to fold to a bet. Of course all this depends on the players that I'm against.

Here's why I would bet this spot:

1. I would have the odds to chase the gutter for one bet, so why not bet and try to purchase better position. Since I would not have the option of taking a free card, I think this is a perfect example of when Sklansky talks about betting w/ a hand you were going to call w/ anyway. And since hero is PF aggressor, he can represent an ace nicely.

2. It's possible that no aces or jacks are out and medium PP's need a chance to fold and they are right to do so here. Being called by a Jack isn't so bad either.

3. I like it when my opponents get accustomed to me betting when I'm in the lead. I seem to get called down w/ lots of crappy hands when I don't whiff since they tend to remember that time that I didn't have it and/or that time when I was a fish and hit a four outer to their pair.

4. Betting the flop makes a free turn card SLIGHTLY more likely.

5. If you get raised behind you, there is a good chance that if you spike, you can check/raise the whole field.

With 3 opponents, I do not think it is a clear bet and/or a big mistake either way, but (based on no reads) w/ 4-10 outs and the slight possibility of taking this one down, I think betting is better than calling.

This is a scary board for them too if they whiffed.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I felt this hand was interesting and i'm glad there is some controversy regarding it. Here are some key things to think about.

1.) What better hands (Medium PP's can we fold with this bet)
2.) Will we get raised by medium ace here?
3.) If i check and there is one bet, am i going to call anyway to chase, getting only around 9-1?

Here was my thinking at the time. Since i was not 3 bet preflop, a big ace was unlikely, i can't see someone having better then A-8 to A-10 here, although some players would have just called with AJ preflop i guess. Therefore, i am probably not getting raised all that often on this flop by most passives at 5-10. If we think we are getting raised, then betting is clearly wrong. So if a medium will just call my bet, but bet if i checked to them, it seemed like a good idea to bet for folding equity, to keep the lead in the hand, and to figure out where i am at. Any further thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO if you DON'T bet, someone will and thus knock out the guy with 77. If no one bets, then the guy with 77 gets a free chance to spike a set, but that isn't the end of the world at worse than 20:1. What does suck though, is getting raised here when you likely could have seen the turn for 1 bet or even free.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing to think about here is to make this bet unprofitable (assuming we are going to call bet) we need to be raised 4x as often as we take down the pot uncontested. I don't know which occurance is more common, just food for thought.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I like a bet here, but it depends on a few factors that I may be wrong about since I don't play 5/10. If you are unlikely to get raised, even by a medium ace, then betting becomes much more enticing. If your hand is even marginally worth a call it's worth a bet. I think your hand is worth a call here (you'd be getting 10:1 on a gutshot), and you may fold the aforementioned 77 or some other better hand. The likelihood of this happening again should entice you to bet; if the players have been taking hands like that to showdown on boards like then perhaps checking and hoping for a free card is better. You certainly aren't obligated to bet the turn if you miss, but I can't see betting the flop being worse than calling unless it's likely you'll be raised or it's likely the flop will be checked around. Since I doubt both of these: bet.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to think about here is to make this bet unprofitable (assuming we are going to call bet) we need to be raised 4x as often as we take down the pot uncontested. I don't know which occurance is more common, just food for thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but I think we win this pot with a flop bet just about never.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I think a bet is a big mistake. MP and SB both called your UTG raise preflop. I think the chances that at least one of them has an A or a J is VERY good, in which case a bet is horrible.

Cartman

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a bet is a big mistake. MP and SB both called your UTG raise preflop. I think the chances that at least one of them has an A or a J is VERY good, in which case a bet is horrible.

Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very decent chance one of them has an ace or a J, but that doesnt make it horrible at all. If he has a J, betting is definitly correct, and if he isnt raising an ace, it's still correct. Put more thought into it before making comment like that.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

one thing I forgot to factor in is how often it checks around if we check. since I think this is about never, I think betting gets some bonus points there. hmm maybe I should c/r more from these spots with good hands...

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
one thing I forgot to factor in is how often it checks around if we check. since I think this is about never, I think betting gets some bonus points there. hmm maybe I should c/r more from these spots with good hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm.......

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, betting is the best line:
1. You might be able to pick up the pot with a single bet
2. if MP1 folds and the blinds call you can take a free river.
3 You have an okay draw, and your K and Q may still be worth something if you spike a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

The value of each of these points is very player dependent. Against tight players, you have extra fold and free card equity, plus you have a better idea of where you stand when called. Good players will rarely play back at you without a better hand. Loose players may peel and either fold the turn or give you a free card out of position.

I like betting out against tight and predictable players, because I know I can occassionally take the pot down immediately (weak-tight/good) or even with a turn bet (certain breeds of loose passives). The former will often give free cards. I would never bet against loose aggressive players, or other opponents particularly likely to hold an ace or raising hand. The key to betting profitably here is not being raised on the flop.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I'm check-calling. For one thing it would suck to have to pay 2SB to see the turn since you have to see it. Also, I figure I'm probably behind and drawing and have to hit something to win since I think it will usually go to showdown. The flop has probably hit at least one of them and if it has they have already proven that they are loose by cold-calling an UTG raise. Pre-loosies are usually post-loosies absent a read that tells me otherwise.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

There seems to be confusion about the action. I read that BB is gone and we have three opponents, two of whom are sitting behind us. The flop action is SB checks, Hero ???.

I consider this decision to be close between bet and checkcall. Many of the posters in this thread are not addressing the actual issues.

It is usually the case that our choice doesn't matter very much. We can bet and be called or we can check and call a bet from behind us. For example if we bet and are called only by the button who has A2 then nothing bad has happened unless he was planning to give us a free card.

Consider the cases where it actually does matter what we do:

1. (Bet) We can win this pot immediately by betting, possibly folding out a small pair in the process. This is a good bluffing board for a PFR and if no one hit then we are likely to take it down. Decent players are unlikely to call this flop with a pocket pair lower than JJ, especially if they are not last to act. Comments by some posters that Button and/or SB must be idiots for coldcalling preflop are silly. First of all their preflop calls may be perfectly correct and second many players who make incorrect coldcalls preflop are still decent players who are capable of folding this flop with a weak pair.

Realize also that it's a big victory to bet and win the pot by folding out 32, 32, and 32 respectively. Having the best hand is not very helpful when your hand is too weak to take any heat. If you check the flop and fail to improve on the turn, this pot will probably be taken away from you whether you have the best hand or not.

2. (Check) We can get raised and forced to pay two bets to chase. The field may be reduced by this raise which is very costly because we are banking on a nut draw that wants company.

3. (Check) We may be betting the worst hand when we could have had a free card. For this reason I would condemn a bet against unknown opponents in a 1/2 game.

4. (Bet) We may buy ourselves a free card on the turn. Note that it won't always be necessary to actually drive out both MP and Button. We only need to drive out the player who would have bet. Even if we drive out no one we may still create a free card. It may be sufficient to persuade SB not to bet Ax or frighten a hand behind us like 66. Typical fish play with 66 is to call the flop (got a pair) and then accept all available freebies. They know your turn check denies an ace but in their mind you probably have something like QJ or TT because that's how they play. Checking the flop is much more likely to trigger either immediate betting or at least a turn bet when you check again.

Reads will tell you how to weight possibilities 1-4. Without reads I think it is a close decision at 5/10 but I would tend to bet. Many players are prone to betting at vacuums but rarely raise. Against these players betting has a lot to gain and little to lose. Other players raise a lot and checkcalling is the only way to go.

The important thing is that you frame the question properly and think about the right things. Those who say something like "any ace or jack will call ... therefore betting is bad" are lost in my perpsective. Compared to checkcalling, betting and being called by a better hand could cost money, save money, or breakeven.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

This is a good spot to check for 2 reasons, besides that you missed it -

1 - you raised UTG and checked when an A hit the flop, thus giving off the only tell I've ever found to be reliable online - you hit your hand and play weak. Happens all the time and if the players behind you do it, they'll check behind.

2 - there's 9 SB's in pot already giving you the odds to call your gut shot. Hope it only costs you 1 to call if someone bets.

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

I didn't intend to be derogatory at all, I was just offering my opinion which may of course be wrong. I apologize if I came across as if I across as if I know the answer.

How is a bet correct if I know that one of them has a J, assuming that he won't fold it? If I have 10 outs, I am still a significant underdog to win the hand, right? I can see it if the other person calls as well because now I am getting 2 to 1 on my bet.

Also, how is a bet correct if I have an opponent who won't raise with an Ace? I only have 4 outs against him (neglecting runner KQ, KK, or QQ). It seems like this would be very -EV.

I am sure that you are probably correct, I just don't understand. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Cartman

Re: Who continuation bets?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't intend to be derogatory at all, I was just offering my opinion which may of course be wrong. I apologize if I came across as if I across as if I know the answer.

How is a bet correct if I know that one of them has a J, assuming that he won't fold it? If I have 10 outs, I am still a significant underdog to win the hand, right? I can see it if the other person calls as well because now I am getting 2 to 1 on my bet.

Also, how is a bet correct if I have an opponent who won't raise with an Ace? I only have 4 outs against him (neglecting runner KQ, KK, or QQ). It seems like this would be very -EV.

I am sure that you are probably correct, I just don't understand. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah sorry i didn't mean to jump on you. Anyway, with 10 outs against a J your about 60-40. However, betting gives you some leverage on later streets. You might be able to fold, or he might fear a turn C/R and give you a free card. If you check to an ace, it's almost always betting. If you know you're not getting raised by an ace, you would rather bet than call a bet, as you are more likely to get a free turn or showdown from a weak ace. Also, lets say it checks around to whoever is in last position, they definitly might fire this flop with a K-10 type hand, which yo don't want because if forces you to make a move on later streets as opposed to just keeping the lead in the hand.