Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

I was at the Strat yesterday playing some pokah and noticed a dealer put a couple bucks into a box at the counter. I then asked what that was for, and was informed that management has now adopted a policy that all dealers are required to "tip out" the floorman 1.50/hour whether they deal or not. That is 15.00/day as they work 10 hour shifts. 60/wk and 3000/yr. They were told they had no choice. Ok, figure 10 dealers or more on, thats 150.00+ that the floormen get as a bonus to their salary? Whats up with that?

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

This sort of thing is common in other tip-driven industries.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

I haved worked in this business for 9 years and never once see a "forced tip" to someone that is salaried and making about 190/day (assumed over 10 hours by industry average). Well I wont be tipping at the counter anymore when they cash me out.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

When I worked as a waiter, I was expected to tip the bartender and the busboys. I generally did.

When I was a busboy (age 16), I got tipped by the waitresses three times in six months. BTW, busboy is a pretty shitty job.

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

This is a pretty destructive practice, whether it's "industry standard" or not. I don't tip out the floor when I deal, and I don't expect to be tipped out when I'm the floor. I think it's total bullchit. I wouldn't be surprised to see the chit hit the fan over this sooner or later.

al

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty destructive practice, whether it's "industry standard" or not. I don't tip out the floor when I deal, and I don't expect to be tipped out when I'm the floor. I think it's total bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised to see the chit hit the fan over this sooner or later.

al

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I know you guys hate it, but I actually like it both from a management perspective, and from a staff perspective. What I don't like is that the tip out is forced even when the dealer is not working, thats just wrong.

I used to be a parter in a nightclub in a former life, The waitresses tip out the bartender. The bartender tips out the barback, and everyone tips out the buss boys. Floor manager makes a small skim off the tips. Everyone is happy and everyone is encouraged to make the customers happy so everyone profits.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

It should be noted that in rooms which do use this (IMO destructive) practice, $5 a day is the "standard" not $15.

al

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that in rooms which do use this (IMO destructive) practice, $5 a day is the "standard" not $15.

al

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Only to be shown as a comparison, the average tip out by a bartender to his barback is 30%.

Some other interesting tidbits - Foxwoods dealers pool their tips. Casino Arizona dealers turn their tips into the management to get counted and properly reported to the IRS, plus they have to give a percentage (I forgot what the number was) to the house. When I play here I tip anyway cause I'm cool like that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

About tips in Vegas:

I was a "captain" (waitress) at The Venetian in LV. I had to tip out the bartender, backwaiter, busboy, hostess, and at some locations the maitre-D. Las Vegas is a tip (toke) driven town, and everyone expects a %. This does not suprise me, and I am sure it will become SOP.

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

OMGG!!! THANK you so much for all the advice!

Sorry bud, I'm a dealer in Vegas, have been for years, and this is NOT s.o.p. for dealers whatsoever. I know what bartending and so on is, but there is not one place where dealers have to tip out until now.

[ QUOTE ]
About tips in Vegas:

I was a "captain" (waitress) at The Venetian in LV. I had to tip out the bartender, backwaiter, busboy, hostess, and at some locations the maitre-D. Las Vegas is a tip (toke) driven town, and everyone expects a %. This does not suprise me, and I am sure it will become SOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

I know many places poker dealers have to tip out to the brush but a forced toke to the floor is insane.

Side Note about F\'Woods
 

Foxwoods' policy that the dealers pool their tips (including with the pit dealers) is extremely destructive and one of the only major complaints I have about Foxwoods (otherwise I think their room is one of the best run rooms you'll find).

Foxwoods has a mix of very competent, quick, knowledgeable dealers and total rookies who can't manage 12 hands a half hour. There is little incentive for dealers to do anything because any individual tables tip output does basically nothing to their bottom line. It also eliminates the best mechanism for weeding out "the weak" among the dealers.

Just a rant.

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

Tipping out the brush or chip runners is normal, and fine with me. Tipping out the floor is where I draw the line on reasonable behavior.

al

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

The restaurant analogy is faulty because you're either tipping "down" (waiters/bartenders to busboys/barbacks) or in the case of waiters tipping bartenders, it's assumed that the bartender is missing out on tips of his own while working the service bar.

Aside from that, I think floor people should be required to refuse all tips, because impartiality is an integral part of their job.

Martin

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

at my cousin's strip club all the dancers have to tip out the DJ $1/per song that they did a private dance... I don't think that kind of thing is abnormal at min wage+tip jobs, but I thought the floormen already made a decent salary

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

Remind me to never tip again at the Strat.

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

Hate to break it to you, Photo and Al, but the dealers are pressured to do the same thing at the MGM. The best is the announcement you'll hear once in a while: "dealers, we're short on chip runners tonight, so if you wouldn't mind helping out on your break..." Keep in mind this is a floor you will hear that announcement from. Does that make any sense? We should be told to run chips ON OUR BREAKS by the same management we're tipping, that isn't on break? Hmmm....

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMGG!!! THANK you so much for all the advice!

Sorry bud, I'm a dealer in Vegas, have been for years, and this is NOT s.o.p. for dealers whatsoever. I know what bartending and so on is, but there is not one place where dealers have to tip out until now.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is entirely not true...at all. L.A., Vegas, lots of places. Most large rooms. For years and years.

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that in rooms which do use this (IMO destructive) practice, $5 a day is the "standard" not $15.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends where you are. I have worked in a large room where $15 was standard for an 8 hour shift.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haved worked in this business for 9 years and never once see a "forced tip" to someone that is salaried and making about 190/day (assumed over 10 hours by industry average). Well I wont be tipping at the counter anymore when they cash me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That guy makeing the 190, 200 or whatever a shift is still making less than he would be dealing. Fair or not a system liek this makes it easier to get the poeple you would wnat to work on the floor to actually do it. A lot of palces you see the weakest dealers become floormen because they are the only ones willing to do it (it is too much of a cut in pay for the better dealers).

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

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That guy makeing the 190, 200 or whatever a shift is still making less than he would be dealing.

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Cry me a [censored] river. Omfg, poor him. Wait, I thought they have to accept the position of floorman when offered a promotion or turn it down. OH yes, that would be their own fault and they know what they are getting into. That's a pisspoor excuse. Simple, no one is forcing the players to tip me, you aren't forcing me to tip UPWARDS to well paid SALARIED employees!

And yes, I've tipped our floormen many times and they usually hand it back saying that they dont want to take anything from their dealers. If one finds me a chip for my collection, I give them a buck usually.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
That guy makeing the 190, 200 or whatever a shift is still making less than he would be dealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cry me a [censored] river. Omfg, poor him.

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That’s what I usually say to the dealers that whine about tipping out.


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Wait, I thought they have to accept the position of floorman when offered a promotion or turn it down. OH yes, that would be their own fault and they know what they are getting into. That's a pisspoor excuse.

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No, it really isn’t. If dealers did not tip out floorpeople, there would be no qualified floor. Without qualified floor, you dealers would have no games to deal.

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Simple, no one is forcing the players to tip me, you aren't forcing me to tip UPWARDS to well paid SALARIED employees!

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I assume you work at one of the smaller rooms in town? Don’t ever expect to work in a “real” poker room with that attitude.

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And yes, I've tipped our floormen many times and they usually hand it back saying that they dont want to take anything from their dealers. If one finds me a chip for my collection, I give them a buck usually.

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That’s just plain weird. Do you deal at Circus Circus?
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

I'm glad you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you deal? Do you floor? I don't know for sure but it sounds like you have no clue, and no I dont work at a "small" room in town.

My problem with this is that they decided to institute this rule as soon as the dealers starting making decent tips in the room.

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If dealers did not tip out floorpeople, there would be no qualified floor

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I have no idea what this means. If the floor get tipped, that will make them more qualified? That makes no sense. The good floors (usually) are good dealers that accepted a promotion to floor.

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That’s what I usually say to the dealers that whine about tipping out.


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If you even bothered to read the whole post, it had nothing to do with me crying about having to tip out. I was unhappy that another room is forcing them to tip out.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

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I'm glad you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you deal? Do you floor? I don't know for sure but it sounds like you have no clue, and no I dont work at a "small" room in town.


[/ QUOTE ]

Michael O'Malley is one of the most knowledgeable people in the industry today.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you deal? Do you floor? I don't know for sure but it sounds like you have no clue, and no I dont work at a "small" room in town.

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You are right, I have “no clue”. What room do you work in?

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My problem with this is that they decided to institute this rule as soon as the dealers starting making decent tips in the room.

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That sounds like a pretty good time to make them tip out. After all, you wouldn’t want the dealers to have to tip out when they aren’t making “decent tips”.

[ QUOTE ]
If dealers did not tip out floorpeople, there would be no qualified floor
I have no idea what this means. If the floor get tipped, that will make them more qualified? That makes no sense. The good floors (usually) are good dealers that accepted a promotion to floor.

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No good dealer would ever accept a “promotion” to Floorperson if they thought all dealers were like you and were going to stiff them. Do you have any idea what the salary is for a floorperson in this town?

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That’s what I usually say to the dealers that whine about tipping out.
If you even bothered to read the whole post, it had nothing to do with me crying about having to tip out. I was unhappy that another room is forcing them to tip out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I read the whole post, most noticeably the part where you said “Cry me a [censored] river. Omfg, poor him.”

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

Who is Michael O'Malley?

And I've noticed this topic has turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest, so I will not be replying anymore as it just isn't worth my time.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who is Michael O'Malley?

And I've noticed this topic has turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest, so I will not be replying anymore as it just isn't worth my time.

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That would be your best bet. Dealers that are unwilling to take care of the rest of the poker room staff dont last long in this business.

Re: Stratosphere screwing their dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who is Michael O'Malley?


[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a link.

http://www.rzitup.com/poker/poker.htm

OK OK already guys
 

Alrighty now, everyone just calm the frigg down now.

Photoc FEELS the way he does. That's O-K. However, there has been a "little flamage" going on here from all sides. Obviously this is a highly charged issue (well no chit Capone! Nice grasp of the obvious!). It should be noted that Photoc DOESN'T have to personally tip ANYONE out, and therefore his OPINION cannot be considered to be one born of personal bitterness and sorrow for lost wages.

My PERSONAL feeling is that I DONT think "tipping out" floorpersons is good for poker. However, I do realize that this practice does exist, and is not that uncommon. Do I personally think it's destructive? Sure, particularly if it's excessive. $15 a day is quite excessive IN MY OPINION. $5 is not excessive, but I still don't like it. However, my opinion does not equal fact, at least not when I have had this FEW beers. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It should also be noted that I think that tipping out chip runners and brushes (if they are not floorpersons) is pretty normal. I just personally feel that "floorpersons" should be in a different category. I have personally tipped chip runners many times and never felt bitter about it.

Keep in mind here that I am also a floorperson, and my opinion stems from having walked in the shoes of both sides. That doesn't make me right, at least not until I've had a few more beers! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I do think it's OK to take the side of the minority on this particular issue, and anyone that does so shouldn't get too much flak over it.

al

Re: OK OK already guys
 

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It should also be noted that I think that tipping out chip runners and brushes (if they are not floorpersons) is pretty normal. I just personally feel that "floorpersons" should be in a different category.

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I am shocked...SHOCKED! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I would honestly like to know why you think tipping out chiprunners is "ok and feels good", but you dont feel the same about floorpersons?

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be a parter in a nightclub in a former life, The waitresses tip out the bartender. The bartender tips out the barback, and everyone tips out the buss boys. Floor manager makes a small skim off the tips. Everyone is happy and everyone is encouraged to make the customers happy so everyone profits.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Has a real Casino (the movie) rip off feel to it. Am I wrong?

Re: Side Note about F\'Woods
 

[ QUOTE ]
Foxwoods has a mix of very competent, quick, knowledgeable dealers and total rookies who can't manage 12 hands a half hour. There is little incentive for dealers to do anything because any individual tables tip output does basically nothing to their bottom line. It also eliminates the best mechanism for weeding out "the weak" among the dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: OK OK already guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would honestly like to know why you think tipping out chiprunners is "ok and feels good", but you dont feel the same about floorpersons?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the hourly pay is considerably different. In addition, the potential for abuse exists in situations where floormen (i.e. bosses) REQUIRE their employees to tip out. If we were talking purely voluntary tipping out here I doubt this would be much of a thread.

Also, your use of quotes is inappropriate, I never said the exact words you are "quoting" here. Small details do count in Capone's world, no matter how irrelevant. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Still tho, this thread shouldn't be a "can of worms." It's opinion, and opinion, even mine, even after I've been drinking beer, is not FACT. "Industry standard" does not equate to a heavenly directive handed down directly from Jesus H. to the poker world, and in the case of forced tipping of floorpersons, the whole thing is even less black and white.

al

p.s. I'm kinda thirsty I think I'll have a beer now [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: OK OK already guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would honestly like to know why you think tipping out chiprunners is "ok and feels good", but you dont feel the same about floorpersons?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the hourly pay is considerably different. In addition, the potential for abuse exists in situations where floormen (i.e. bosses) REQUIRE their employees to tip out. If we were talking purely voluntary tipping out here I doubt this would be much of a thread.

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Aha,I was waiting for someone to bring this up. In most major (large), "real" [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] poker rooms, a floorperson is NOT a boss. They are an employee that reports to the shift manager and has no authoritative control over a dealer, chiprunner or any other employee.
You are right, it is all opinion, especially when it comes to smaller rooms. But there is an industry standard in the larger rooms, and they work very well (for the most part).

Re: OK OK already guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, the potential for abuse exists in situations where floormen (i.e. bosses) REQUIRE their employees to tip out.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Michael pointed out the floormen just work there in a larger room. In samller rooms the potnetial for abuse is eliminated if the toke rate is a fixed "fee" if everyoen is paying the same amount there is no room for abuse. There is an issue with establishing it to begin with, I woudl say the best thing to do in a new room is follow the industry standard.

Re: OK OK already guys
 

Some (hopefully) final thoughts...

1. The strat is a small cardroom with eight tables. That's what we were originally talking about.

2. In small cardrooms, including the strat, the floorperson is essentially the boss in all respects, except for possibly making the schedule, since no one else of any authority at all is in the room while they are on duty. Having them either on your side or against you could make a big difference in your daily experience at work.

3. In small cardrooms, the floors almost always get a cut of daily tournament dealer add-on fees and of the tips. This should make up for any salary deficiencies they might take by working as a floorman in that room. In my cardroom this is particularly true, and tipping them out (on top of their rather sizeable tournament cut) would be laughable. This very well might not apply to larger cardrooms, where different practices undoubtedly exist, which leads me to point #4...

4. I haven't worked in large or very large cardrooms like commerce, the bike, the taj, etc. I don't know everything there is to know on this subject. It's an interesting topic, but probably doesn't deserve to be so heated.

al

Re: OK OK already guys
 

i would like to see a list of the casinos in las vegas where the dealers are forced to tip out the floormen...
because i would like to stop tipping the dealers there, if theyre just gonna piss their money away to jackholes..
never met a floorman minus the attitude [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: OK OK already guys
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would like to see a list of the casinos in las vegas where the dealers are forced to tip out the floormen...
because i would like to stop tipping the dealers there, if theyre just gonna piss their money away to jackholes..
never met a floorman minus the attitude [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Stiffing the dealers fixes nothing. Taking your business elsewhere fixes many things.

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

As a poker player I have always thought of a floorperson as a part of management. I thought they should be compensated from the rake and not my tips. Being compensated from tips could lead to favortism for the bigger tippers. Tipping dealers does not lead to a conflict of interest as the dealer would not be making final decisions concerning the players money. Floor persons do have the final say in conflicts.

I dealt craps for two years. I had never heard of tipping the floop persons out of our tips. I don't think any of the dealers tipped the floor. The floor was not allowed to accept tips from the players directly. (For obvious reasons). If you do tip the floor you are paying taxes, fica etc. on money that you are not receiving. Just my opinions........

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Stratosphere taking money from their dealers?
 

As a poker player I have always thought of a floorperson as a part of management.

I knew that wasn't true the moment I was asked about taking a job as a floor person. My first question was what are the benefits, the second question was would I be allowed ot play.

The answers were, none and no. Easy interview.