Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter

MP3 (t780)
CO (t770)
Hero (t775)
SB (t785)
BB (t1620)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t790)
MP1 (t965)
MP2 (t730)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t87.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, UTG folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises all-in for 1620.</font>

Am I folding to his t100 opener? He did get a free flop, after all, so who knows what kind of weird two pair he could have...

Thanks for your help, dudes-

J Chaaaaaap

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

This is tough, IMO. He didn't raise preflop, which usually means you can rule out AQ, KK and AA. What buyin is this?

My first instinct was that he had a huge hand, and I would probably go with that instinct in the game and fold.

But then I realized he opened for 100. In my experience (and I could be WAY off as I haven't played the volume of games others have) even bottom two pair will usually slow play this a bit, and certainly not bet as much as t100.

So, maybe calling would be correct, but it's tough without a read and since this is the first level you probably don't have a strong read on the villian.

I'm stumped, but there are my thoughts.

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIPPPY

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

How did he get his chips?

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

This is like the millionth time a hand like this has come up. If you aren't willing to go all the way with TPGK, then don't bother playing it. I would probably call here, but I play at the 20s and 30s.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is like the millionth time a hand like this has come up. If you aren't willing to go all the way with TPGK, then don't bother playing it. I would probably call here, but I play at the 20s and 30s.

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Would you have played it differently at any point? If so, how? I'm wondering if anyone raises preflop.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

I would have folded preflop to avoid these types of situations. Because honestly...what are you expecting to flop calling KQo in the button? This is pretty much the best you could ask for.

However, now that he's in this situation I would probably have pushed and/or call the all-in with two cards to come (unless he has a very, very solid read). If he has trips or aces or whatever so be it...you still have outs on the flop.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

fold preflop.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Two pair or better is worth limping here.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Raise preflop

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

raise? are you kidding me?

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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Two pair or better is worth limping here.

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The odds of flopping two pair are 48.5-1. If you are only calling in order to flop two pair and folding everything else, this is an incredibly -EV move.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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raise? are you kidding me?

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Yes.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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raise? are you kidding me?

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Yes.

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God bless you.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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Fold preflop

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FYP

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

When people are paying you off for t300+ implied chips here if you hit.

What about odds of hitting trips?

And obviously, reads matter. Without reads.... I think I might just call here and see the turn action.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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When people are paying you off for t300+ implied chips here if you hit.


What about odds of hitting trips?

And obviously, reads matter. Without reads.... I think I might just call here and see the turn action.

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You're right...we can hit two pair and trips with KQo...I forgot. I should also start limping with 23o and 72o because of the implied odds of hitting two pair or trips, right?

For like the 12th time, what is the point of playing this hand if you aren't willing to back top pair up with some cajones?

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

[ QUOTE ]

RAISE preflop


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FYP



Ok, but seriously now, I see that BB was the first to double up, did you happen to see how he did that? He may be a maniac and at the lower buy-in levels, I wouldn't be surprised to see 78, KT, or even something worse and you probably have 3 or more outs if he doesn't have a set which it doesn't really look like. Higher buy-in and I might lay it down. But I usually just call on the flop here--his bet has dropped everyone else out and there are no big draws on the board and you are either pretty far ahead or you're behind so I wait for the turn to see what he does. Maybe that's not correct, though?

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Just because you double up early on doesn't mean you're a maniac...I've tripled up on the first hand of a 20 with AA vs TT and KQ...

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Because at the levels I believe OP is playing at, people aren't having a worse hand than you here. BB is showing a helluva lot of strength here...

You're trying to get the money in with the best of it, and fold when you don't. I think calling to see the turn is best here.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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Maybe that's not correct, though?

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yeah, maybe its not.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

The limp is debatable in my opinion, but I mean that literally in that I think you can go either way. I personally fold because I think this hand has huge reverse implied odds, but you could make an argument for calling. In any case, nothing about his bet necessarily means you're beat, however I don't think you should be happy about it. What does everyone think about just calling this flop bet and using your position to play a hand. Now, this is an assupmtion, but I'd be willing to guess this guy got his chips because he likes to throw them around. That's usually how people double up in L1; by being goof balls. This makes the hand very difficult to play. I think the whole thing hinges on your hand history. If he got his chips in a reasonable way, maybe call the flop bet (or fold), and don't put another chip in the pot. This is a fairly drawless board, so if we're only letting him draw to his worse kicker when we're ahead that alright, and when we're behind we get a chance to catch up. If he fires on a turn blank (and a fair amount of cards are blank) then I think we can safely fold because he needs a decent hand to do this (maybe he's a yahoo, but we can't risk it). If the hand history indicates he's ridiculous you maybe can play it the way you did with the intention of getting all in. This is only if he got his chips by rivering trips with mid board pair or something like that (and yes that happens alot). Buyin would help. As it stands this is very read dependant. If you don't have one for some reason, fold. You still have alot of chips.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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Because at the levels I believe OP is playing at, people aren't having a worse hand than you here. BB is showing a helluva lot of strength here...

You're trying to get the money in with the best of it, and fold when you don't. I think calling to see the turn is best here.

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I think calling is fine, maybe raising is slightly better but they are both good. All I'm saying is why are you raising 300 chips with TPTK if you aren't willing to go all-in...

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Hmm... Yeah. If you want to drop this, raise to t250... Pushing could work here...

Though I don't like any of those lines more than calling. At the very least, you'll be getting it in with the best of it more often...

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Folding preflop sucks (but your hand would be better if it was KJs, but still, folding preflop sucks.)

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

What about flop play? Please tell us what you do on the flop and why... For donkish and non-donkish opponent. Please?

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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Because at the levels I believe OP is playing at, people aren't having a worse hand than you here. BB is showing a helluva lot of strength here...

You're trying to get the money in with the best of it, and fold when you don't. I think calling to see the turn is best here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do we even know what level this is? At the $33s and below, the opponent could easily be doing this is Q7, T9, JT...a ton of hands that OP beats.

I don't know what to do, this is kind of ugly. In the heat of battle, I'm sure I pop it...then groan and call the all-in. Probably looking at something like 96o, he just got a BB special. As long as he doesn't have a set, you've got outs. And the fact that a lot of opponents will make this kinda play with hands that you just murder is too much to discount.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

It's very important to know how he got those chips...if he got there by checking AK or AA or something I muck to the first bet.

Otherwise, seems like a way ahead/way behind, call off a lot of chips, etc. But I don't have a big problem with raise/calling at lower buyins since it's QJ so often.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

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It's very important to know how he got those chips.

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This was a $22 - my bad.

Can't find hand history right now, but let's not be held back by that...

Scenario 1: Douche got his chips by throwing money around like a complete moron and getting lucky. [He's Bad/Loose/Aggressive]

S2: D got his C's by limping with a monster. [He's Sneaky/Tight/Passive]

S3: DGHC's by skillfully outplaying somebody with a good hand. [He's Competent/Tight/Aggressive]

Now schwhat?

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

Meh, you're right. I dunno, I said "Believe," but 6 limpers pf sends off alarm bells.

Re: Should I even call his flop opener here?
 

If it's S1 I very quickly raise and expect QJ to push. S2, I just fold. S3, I fold but type in 'let me see the 96 please?' to screw with him.