34 off suite or 95 suited
 

15-30 game

You don't know any of the players. You post $10 in small blind. One limper call from middle postion. You decided to call. Do you rather want to have 34 off suite or 95 suited?

Thank you

Soh

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Is this a trick question?

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

No.

I posted this hand becuase I though the answer is ovbious, but one good player responded different, so I ws wondering what other people think about this.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

95s, it isn't close, yawn.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Soh,

I think this is a very interesting question.

Since I am going to attempt to make logical arguments for one hand over the other, I do feel it necessary to clarify in advance that as far as I am concerned...

BOTH HANDS SUCK!!!!!

With this being clearly said, on to my thoughts...

While I feel arguments can be made for both hands, personally, I would prefer the 34 off suit for a variety of different reasons.

When looking at these two (or any) hands, I think it is important to have an idea of the best hand you can hope to make with your starting two cards. With the 95 suited, the obvious answer would be the flush. With the 34 off suit, the obvious answer would be the straight.

If I make a straight with the 34 off suit, there is a good chance it will be a wheel. Since a wheel contains an Ace, there is a very good possibility that I will make a few bets off someone holding an Ace or possibly multiple bets off someone holding Ax suited and making two pair. Many weak players like to play any Ace.

Many weak players (players who open limp generally have a tendency to be weak from my experience) like to limp with small pairs such as 22,33,44,55, or 66 - they limp because they like to see the flop for cheap. If I make my straight and they hit their set, the payoff is potentially very good. There are very few trap situations with 34 off suit - usually you flop all of it or none of it - hardly ever will you flop top pair - for the most part - hardly ever will you not be really sure where you are at in the hand - this specific analysis being relative of course.

In other words..... From my perspective, I am less likely to make a hand that is second best and lose multiple bets with the 34 off suit than I am with the 95 suited.

I cannot emphasize enough the enormous importance I personally place on doing as much as I can to avoid hands that have a greater potential of making a hand that is second best.

It is much easier to flop top pair with 95 suited and lose.

It is much easier to make a straight with 95 suited and lose to someone playing 910 suited.

It is much easier to make a flush with 95 suited and lose multiple bets to someone who makes a bigger flush.

If there were multiple players - more than 4 besides myself (5 or more total), then I would probably take the 95 suited because although I still may make second best, the pots odds are more likely to be there for me to draw to the hand I hope to make.

I really do not feel the over card advantage that 95 suited has over 34 off suit makes up for the potential trap situations that come with it - the board is likely to contain a card bigger than a 9 or a 3 so I throw the over card advantage right out the window and look past it as I feel the other factors contribute more to the long term +/- ev of one hand over the other.

For me, the bottom line is they both absolutely suck - but if I do get fortunate and make my wheel - I am more likely to get multiples bets out of the hand as many players will play any A, and most play any A suited. Coupled with the fact that there are so few ways I can get trapped with the hand, and so few ways I can make a second best hand, I give the nod to the not so obvious 34 off suit.

A sorta similar example would be a choice between having 22 or K10 - when I say similar, I mean similar in the type of questions I ask myself when playing a cheesy hand - I understand the over card value is much greater here - and with position the K10 will likely make more money long run -I ONLY use this as an example of the type of questions I ask myself - I think it just paints a clearer picture of the importance of the questions - regardless of the outcome.

1. Which hand is easier to play after the flop?

2. Which hand am I likely to get more bets out of if I do hit?

3. Which hand am I likely to make second best with and get punished?

4. Which hand am I less likely to get trapped with?

5. Which hand am I likely to have a better idea of where I am at in the hand allowing me to save bets or make more bets? Not calling with 22 past the flop if you do not hit vs getting paid off by someone with an over pair when you do hit the 22?

Hopefully, this helps explain my thought process. While I am not saying I can give any statistical percentages or odds of which hand plays better, I do prefer the 34 off because if I hit I likely get paid off, if I do not hit, it likely does not cost me any more at all, and I am a lot less likely to hit the hand and make a second best hand.

All in all, when analyzing a situation such as this, I think the most important thing by far is to evaluate the specific thought process in order to make better overall poker decisions. Since it is blatantly obvious the hands being discussed are not going to make anyone any money long term and both are almost surely guaranteed to be long-term losers, the most valuable benefit from this situation comes from...........
How we think about which hands to play and how to play them, and to continually re-define and re-evaluate our thought process relative to our own game, the opponents we are competing against, and the applicable ensuing results.

Regardless of the minute difference between both of these garbage hands, they still possess inherent value by helping us to ask questions we can better apply to other poker situations. In my opinion, this is the value this situation offers and why I have spent so much time on two hands that do not seem worth even the slightest glance.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

PS - I am sure most of you have guessed by now that I was the player who Soh referred in his response to Majorkong that did not think the answer was soh obvious.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

this is a hot and cold simulation where both opponents hold RANDOM cards; we're assuming the limper has something reasonable, but the results (of what % of the time the hand will hold up) for this are still valid:

34o - 22.81%
95o - 26.72%
95s - 30.42%

as you can see, it's not even close. i know that hot and cold sims can catch a lot of backdoorisms, but the same would hold true for 34o as well.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

for 1/3 a bet i'd even take 95 offsuit against one limper over 34 suited! high cards are far more important with one or two opponents and low cards just plain suck. your wins come by stealing or flopping a pair and if you flop a pair you at least have a chance making middle or even top pair with 95.

~ Rick

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Mike-

To be honest, I didn't read your entire essay, but I could quickly tell we very much disagree on this. I don't have time right now to get into long dissertations or debates, so I'll just point out the one thing that LEAPED out and is very easy to dispute...

It is much easier to flop top pair with 95 suited and lose.

This statement is CLEARLY wrong! And probably not insignificant especially since you're discussing a heads-up situation.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Neither. Now when you fold for just one chip, they're going to give you some respect when you raise the next hand from the button.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

so you go -ev to bank on your opponents actually paying attention to this? most don't.

i thought it was bad advice when tommy said it, and i think it's bad advice now.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Neither. Now when you fold for just one chip, they're going to give you some respect when you raise the next hand from the button.

Or, to look at it from the opposite perspective, when you take down the pot w/ your nine-high flush, they'll cold-call your button 3-bet w/ AA when they have AQo and pay you off all the way. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"Do you want 34 off suit or 95 suited?"

It depends. What's the flop?

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

I don't think Tommy offered advice. I believe he said he would fold and explained why he would do it.

I suspect that the inability of a relatively high percentage of players to throw away lousy hands from the small blind pre-flop in games in which the small blind is 2/3 of the big blind is one reason why they sustain bigger losses in those games than they would were the small blind 1/2 of the big blind.

Granting that pre-flop decisions may not be that important compared to how you play post-flop, I find it awfully hard to play 4-3 and 9-5 with two players behind me. Call me a mediocrity with a brain leak. Hell, they're pretty hard to play with two players in front of me. I prefer to be pounding a guy from behind (no jokes please) than guessing from in front.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"I don't think Tommy offered advice. I believe he said he would fold and explained why he would do it."

if memory serves, i believe the thread was called something like 'how i make a living at limit holdem'. this implies it's how he makes his money, which could certainly be construed as advice if it's given in public on a forum largely dedicated to advice.

"I suspect that the inability of a relatively high percentage of players to throw away lousy hands from the small blind pre-flop in games in which the small blind is 2/3 of the big blind is one reason why they sustain bigger losses in those games than they would were the small blind 1/2 of the big blind."

i think the bigger problem is that they suck with them post-flop. if they can't handle flopping a 9 with 95s, by all means, they should pitch it.

fwiw, i would probably fold 34o unless the limper was gomer pyle. 95s i would play without question.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Kevin,

I absolutely mean this with the most sincerest and all due respect, however I find it somewhat troubling that you, or anyone else for that matter would actually respond to a specific post, mine in this particular situation, without having read it in its entirety. With this said, I do understand that my posts are lengthy, likely far too lengthy in many cases, but at the very least, and the only thing I will say in my defense, whether they are right or wrong, I do put a lot of time, thought, and sincerity in my efforts.

By your own admission, I am guessing you read Soh's and my post in a somewhat more hasty fashion than normal and I just wanted to clarify that the situation was not heads up. From my interpretation of Soh's post, the situation described was three handed unless the big blind folds his hand pre-flop for no raise - highly unlikely after posting a big blind.

In regards to my comment, I did not clearly state my intention when I stated "it is easier to flop top pair with 95 suited and lose" You are correct from an odds perspective and I did not write what I meant thus it came out different than I intended.

What I meant was that I feel that it is more likely that one can be facing a 9 with a greater kicker when having 95 suited and a flop with 9 high on it, than flopping a 4 for top pair and be faced with a hand with a 4 with a better kicker in it. I feel there are more hands with a 9 in them that an average opponent is likely to play than there are with a 4 in them an opponent is likely to play. To name a few... I would think 89, 910, 9J, 9Q, K9, A9, and possibly even 79, not to mention all of these hands suited. I feel these 14 hands (7 not suited and 7 suited) are likely candidates for an average opponent to see the flop with.

As far as hands with a 4 in them, the ones I can think of are A4, and 45, with 46 possibly being in there as well. Anwy, this is all speculation but I see less playable hands with a 4.

Since I do feel there are likely more playable hands with a 9 in them than a 4 in them, my thoughts are that when you flop a 9 for top pair, I feel there is a greater chance, given the likely holding of your opponents, you are beat. However, I understand I still may be way off on this.

I understand you are very busy, and have not yet had a chance to read my all too lengthy post, but my main point is at the end of the post and I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on it. I know for a fact that you think as much or likely more about the game than I do and I would be very interested in your take on my interpretation on the real value a situation such as this truly offers. As I stated in much more detail in my initial response, I do not think the true value is in the percentages of one hand vs the other.

Sorry if I jumped on you in the beginning about not reading my 3000 word essay in its entirety before responding. It was just that my true point was at the end and I am guessing you did not get that far and I was hoping to hear your thoughts based on that.

Regardless, as I anticipated, I can see already that I am definitely going to be in the minority regarding my thoughts on this. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Actually, its very very difficult to flop top pair with 43 [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

agreed!!!

LMAO
 

LMAO!!!

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

i'm responding to your second post, and i only read a few sentences of it AND only a few sentences of the first.

they're really long, incorrect responses to a really simple question. 95s makes more money.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"[folding 95s for one chip from the SB] could certainly be construed as advice if it's given in public on a forum largely dedicated to advice."

In that case, I apologize for placing my yearning for discussion of an interesting disagreement above the needs and concerns of whoever it is that might have been led down the deadly bankroll busting path of folding too many bad hands out of position before the flop.


Tommy

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

you're a true martyr!

decisions, decisions...
 

"You decided to call. Do you rather want to have 34 off suite or 95 suited?"

then the waitress comes by and you order the special of the day: a dogshite sandwich. would you rather have it on wheat or rye?

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"Do you rather want to have 34 off suite or 95 suited?"

I didn't know they gave me a choice!

Re: decisions, decisions...
 

Does it come with chips?

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

With all due respect, MichaelD... I think you should have taken the time you spent to write your treatise and used it to go hit on women in the supermarket melon section.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Major,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have never personally had much luck at the supermarket, but the local 7-11 has treated me pretty darn well. I will definitely take your advice and give the supermarket another go the next time around.

Thanks so much.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Oooooh, I want AA.

seriously, I wouldn't call with either, unless I had to, in which case I'd MUCH rather have 95 suited, and it's not close.

LOL! . . .
 

. . .especially the spelling of dogshite.

Bravo, Mike.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

I had assumed poster meant "would you be better off calling with 9-5s or 4-3o?" But your reply has made me think that perahps he did mean one decides to call before seeing what one's hand is. In that case, I would like to post this:

You don't know any of the players. You post $10 in small blind. One limper call from middle postion. You decided to
fold. Do you rather want to have 34 off suite or 95 suited?

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Andy,

My answer was really just a smartass remark with little redeeming value. The point I was trying to make was..."who cares because you can only play what you are dealt" Apparently the initial poster would play both hands, inc case its irrelevant which he would *rather* have.

Anyways, it was just a little sarcastic humor gone awry.

For a serious answer to your question....folding 34 is better than folding 95s. It seems painfully obvious to me that 95s is a vastly superior hand than 34o, and I'm suprised its even being debated.

According to everyone's favorite data (sarcasm) at the pokerrom website, calling with both 34o and 95s is +EV in a 2/3SB scenario. in a 1/2SB scenario, only the 95s is +EV. The overall number for 95s is -.20BBs in this spot and for 34o its -.26BBs.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"painfully obvious"

I love that expression. I once had a student of mine claim he couldn't concentrate because he was "soaking tired."

I have and had no doubt 9-5 plays better here than 4-3. I do have doubts that A) the vast majority of poker players make money playing 9-5 from the sb; and B) the vast majority of poker players would not be better off folding all but premium hands from the small blind (usually after looking at only one card).

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

At the risk of opening up the "how valid is the pokerroom data" can of worms, here's a quick thought on your following quote:

"majority of poker players would not be better off folding all but premium hands from the small blind"

This is the beauty, in my mind, of the pokerrom data. It includes winners, losers and everything in between in a raked environment. It is the perfect example of how an "average" player does.

So since an average SB is -.25 BBs, and the average EV of 95s in Pokerroom cash games is -.20BBs, this tells me that even the brain dead can play the hand in the SB for positive expectation. Make the SB -.33 BBs (as we are discussing) and its a significant money winner at +.13BBs better than folding (on average, with the usual disclaimers).

Do I score any points?

PS, I folded pocket 22 yesterday 3 off the button first in and thought how proud you would be. I did look at both cards though. I can't help it.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

is the ev from cash games only?

where is the actual info on the page?

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Yes, its from cash games only. The data may have problems that prevent one from drawing too many conclusions, but mixing cash games and play games isn't one of them.

You can also break it down into quite an amazing bit of detail by fiddling around in the site which lets you look at the data from several different angles.

https://www.pokerroom.com/evstats/to...php?players=10

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"Do I score any points?"

-Always. Is the average EV of 95s that you cite the average EV of 95s in the sb?

"I folded pocket 22 yesterday 3 off the button first in and thought how proud you would be. I did look at both cards though. I can't help it."

-I wonder if my biggest mistake was posting A) that I never look at the second card when my first card is a deuce; or B) that I never limp; or c) that I have a rather odd physical quirk that has, ahem, backfired on me due to a medication I am taking.

As to not being able to help looking at both cards, it gets easier with practice. And with poor vision.

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

"Is the average EV of 95s that you cite the average EV of 95s in the sb?"

But of course.

(Think Grey Poupon commercial)

Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited
 

Stupid question.

I just checked out the stats through the link you posted. It shows that the only hands that lose more than .33BB from the sb are 4-2s and T-6.

Re: 34 off suit or 95 suited
 

Hence the proponents of playing any two for that extra chip. The bets you collect are so much bigger than the bet you invest.

Now, note that you can break down the results by limit. 95s's EV deteriorates as the limit increases (It is -.41 in 5-10 games). This makes sense. Like I said before, there are a million caveat's with this website (such as sample size when you break it out by limit), but it is instructive nonetheless.

I think the most interesting thing about the data is just how monstrously position sensitive suited connectors are, while the EV's of big offsuit cards are relatively stable regardless of position.

Re: 34 off suit or 95 suited
 

"Hence the proponents of playing any two for that extra chip"

I note that our hosts recommended precisely this 15 yeaers ago without the benefit of computer studies.

BTW, 8:34 PM, shouldn't you be playing poker right now?