10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

The enemy in this hand is 55/5 over 800 or so hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

Hero ($3209.5)
MP1 ($2419)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $80, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>.

Flop: ($190) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $190</font>, MP1 calls $190.

Turn: ($570) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $570</font>, MP1 calls $570.

River: ($1710) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ???

I've seen this guy make some pretty crazy calls, but usually they were "semi-crazy", i.e. AT or so when an Ace hit the board. I'm not sure if I can put him on top pair or something here. Theoretically, calling the bet on the turn should rule out the flush draw, but with this guy you never know.

I find myself in similar situations quite often - I don't mean having top set, but being up against a possible flush draw that nevertheless called a big turn bet.

What to do? Check-call? Push? 'shudder' check-fold?

And what if I have aces instead? Tens?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

unfortunately, i'm thinking you're beat here. i'm putting him on two club face cards. your PF raise should've filtered out the 57s and 7Ts junk that he could possibly be just calling with, playing slow. and i think if he had another set he would have re-raised you on the flop. however, if he's as crazy as you say he is, could he have an OESD here with something like JT? results, please.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Id like to blocking bet here, but because youve been betting EXACTLY the pot the whole way, i think it will be pretty easy for villain to see thru ur blocking bet unless he is retarded.
Do you use the bet pot button all the time?
Does he get tricky?
If he does get tricky then i think i would lead , so he cannot take the pot away from you.
If he doesnt get tricky, i check...and expect him to check behind with anything but the flush.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

you check call to induce a bluff from an overpair.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

check call. Results?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you check call to induce a bluff from an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would an overpair bet this river? I say bet/fold.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

People don't bluff with made hands.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you check call to induce a bluff from an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would an overpair bet this river? I say bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

villian has about 1600 left on the river, the pot is 1700, im thinking bet-folding isnt a good idea, esp. against a 55 vpip who could have anything.

if you bet 800, you going to fold for 800 more getting over 5-1??? if you bet less, they may just raise thinking you are weak.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you check call to induce a bluff from an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would an overpair bet this river? I say bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

villian has about 1600 left on the river, the pot is 1700, im thinking bet-folding isnt a good idea, esp. against a 55 vpip who could have anything.

if you bet 800, you going to fold for 800 more getting over 5-1??? if you bet less, they may just raise thinking you are weak.

[/ QUOTE ]
From OP's description this guy seems to suck pretty bad and not be aggressive. Are you really afraid that he will bluff you out of the pot when you bet 600 on the river after betting full pot on the flop and turn? Didn't seem to me like that type of play would be in this guy's arsenal. And since he's such a loose caller, it seems like checking is just leaving too much money on the table.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People don't bluff with made hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If the guy has 10-10 he's going to check it down. I say move allin on the river

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Check and evaluate. Read dependent. Probably call. Unless he pushes. In which case. Panic.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check and evaluate. Read dependent. Probably call. Unless he pushes. In which case. Panic.

[/ QUOTE ]

im torn between this line and one of betting 800-1k, although if i bet, I aint folding, so i think i like checking a little better.

i really get the feeling he has like 1010 or btm set though.

tough spot with these stack sizes.

hope it worked out for you.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check and evaluate. Read dependent. Probably call. Unless he pushes. In which case. Panic.

[/ QUOTE ]

im torn between this line and one of betting 800-1k, although if i bet, I aint folding, so i think i like checking a little better.

i really get the feeling he has like 1010 or btm set though.

tough spot with these stack sizes.

hope it worked out for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
How are you not leaving tons of money on the table against this donktastic opponent by checking? If you're not going to fold to a raise, why not just push it in? This guy already called two pot sized bets, why would you think he won't call another with whatever he liked on the flop and turn? Sure, you can safely fold to a push from this guy if you check, but it just seems like he will very often be checking behind here with a hand that you beat.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]

i really get the feeling he has like 1010 or btm set though.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a set surely he raises the turn?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
im torn between this line and one of betting 800-1k, although if i bet, I aint folding, so i think i like checking a little better.

[/ QUOTE ]

SO if you check and villian moves allin (less than pot sized bet), are you folding?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im torn between this line and one of betting 800-1k, although if i bet, I aint folding, so i think i like checking a little better.

[/ QUOTE ]

SO if you check and villian moves allin (less than pot sized bet), are you folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

its real close, hard to tell without knowing hero's table image, how this donk plays, bc 95 hands aint that much, and what his post flop agg. is.

and its pot size for all intents and purposes. like 1620 into a 1700 pot i think.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check and evaluate. Read dependent. Probably call. Unless he pushes. In which case. Panic.

[/ QUOTE ]

im torn between this line and one of betting 800-1k, although if i bet, I aint folding, so i think i like checking a little better.

i really get the feeling he has like 1010 or btm set though.

tough spot with these stack sizes.

hope it worked out for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
How are you not leaving tons of money on the table against this donktastic opponent by checking? If you're not going to fold to a raise, why not just push it in? This guy already called two pot sized bets, why would you think he won't call another with whatever he liked on the flop and turn? Sure, you can safely fold to a push from this guy if you check, but it just seems like he will very often be checking behind here with a hand that you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting fine, and I very well may in this spot against this guy, but like i said in my original post, you cant fold if you bet.

he could easily raise all in with two pair, a set, an overpair, or a bluff.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
its real close, hard to tell without knowing hero's table image, how this donk plays, bc 95 hands aint that much, and what his post flop agg. is.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he makes it pretty clear the guy is loose/passive when he says
[ QUOTE ]
The enemy in this hand is 55/5 over 800 or so hands.


[/ QUOTE ]
No?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i really get the feeling he has like 1010 or btm set though.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a set surely he raises the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

he should, but that doesnt mean anything. who knows whats going through his 55 vpip head.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Bet 600-800 to 800 and give him a chance to call with a worse hand; lower set, 2 pair, over pair, etc. If he pushes, take a look at his turn and river aggressions #'s, if he's over 2.5 on those #'s you have to call here, he bluffs often enough or overplays 2nd best hands enough for you to call here and be right enough of the time with these pot odds &amp; top set from the flop, especially since he's much more likely to have you on a big pair like KK or AA here than 99, he could be moving with a large # of hands you have beat.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Thanks all for the responses.

During the hand I decided that I wanted to bet, since he would check a lot of hands he would also call with behind, and I didn't want to have to fold to this guy. If I check here, I am giving myself the opportunity to make a big mistake. If I bet an amount small enough that I can fold to a raise, I might as well check. The pot was already bigger than his stack. If I bet half-pot and he raises all I can beat is basically a bluff or POSSIBLY a lower set. I don't see any other hands that would raise there facing a three-flush. That said, I knew I'd call anyway, which could be an even bigger mistake then check-calling a push, as in that case he would have fold equity and be a little more likely to bluff.

So, I pushed. No way I was laying my hand down against this guy - I had a note from him from the first hand I played, where he called a big bluff with some crappy top pair no kicker hand. Worse hands would only call my bet, whereas I would lose my stack against better hands. Unfortunately, he turned over T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Oh well. Guess he's a Doyle fan.

By the way, who raises the flop in his spot?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Do you really think this guy raises a $600 river bet with a worse hand? By pushing, you actually make his turn play correct, FWIW.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Theoretically, calling the bet on the turn should rule out the flush draw, but with this guy you never know.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you rule out the flush draw after the call of your turn bet it would seem natural to put this idjit on one of the other equally likely hands like AA, KK or JT or JTs. I'm not looking for a boogyman in the closet but J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would make for the worst case scenario. If this idjit has the one holding that I would least like to see then he's going to have to show it to me.

Since you've eliminated the flush draw you put him on the straight draw and push the river. He'll fold with a busted straight and call with his AA or KK. You want to make good decisions but now is not the time to second guess yourself. Stick with your first impression since you have nothing to change your mind.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think this guy raises a $600 river bet with a worse hand? By pushing, you actually make his turn play correct, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. You take his stack on a board pairing club.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Each time I get burned by some dork playing this way, and it's happened twice this week, I always vow to push the turn next time. It's crap like this that can put you on tilt. I guess the best solution is to make the correct play of a ~$600 bet and fold to a raise, which can also make you a little tilty. Why would anyone think this game is fun? Reminds me of golf.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way I was laying my hand down against this guy - I had a note from him from the first hand I played, where he called a big bluff with some crappy top pair no kicker hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rethink your logic in this statement.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

well said voodoo....i bet 800 and give him a chance to call with hands i beat. your hand is too big, and he has something he obviously wants to call with. i am not a big fan of pushing since he defenitely calls with the flush and it might scare him into folding some holdings i beat. if he pushes i have a hard time not calling against this oppnnent, but folding is not out of the question....personal decision there. hope it worked out, i am about to read what i assume is the results.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

What do you mean?

What I meant to say is that since I have seen him call down big bets with shitty hands, I won't rule out that he's calling with some kind of one-pair hand now. Apparently, he likes to believe that his opponents are weak when they bet. If I bet he may call with crap, and if I check he may (correctly) read that as weakness and push a hand he initially called with to see what I'd do, but he now believes might not be good. That possibility gives me an opportunity to screw up - I can't fold knowing for sure he has a flush, but I can't really call either because he might well have it.

In response to the other post about making his turn play correct: Aside from the fact that I'm only laying him 4:1 *IF* I push every time he makes his hand, which is not enough, I won't always pay him off because I won't always have a hand. And that's not even taking into account that in this case not all of his outs were clean.

Right?

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

OK, maybe not correct. But at least quite close to correct. He also had a gutshot straight draw, right? (I'm too lazy to check the hand.) But I think Grue's point is that even though this guy is a donkey, he seems to be quite passive and your evidence of his donkishness is all from him calling with marginal hands, not overbetting hands or bluffing too frequently. So although if you check you may induce a bluff from complete garbage, it doesn't seem like he has complete garbage here. It seems like he has a flush or some worse made hand. So he is going to check the made hands and bet the flush. So you probably can check/fold. But I think that is leaving a lot of money on the table against this super loose opponent, which is why I think you should bet the river. But this villain simply does not seem too likely to bluff raise a marginal made hand on the river here. So if you bet $600 and he raises, you can be certain enough to fold knowing that he hit his flush. That way you make the most when ahead and lose the least when behind, IMO. Against a more normal opponent, it's a bad line as fsuplayer and others pointed out, but this guy seems so bad that it is the line which most takes advantage of his weaknesses (looseness and passivity).

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

Call me weak-tight, but i check fold.

Villain has shown a tendency to call any bet, regardless of the bet's size, and a club comes on the river. You've been betting so hard that I think he would just turn over his hand if he had anything but a flush.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

uhhhh, resluts suck. donk alert. gut shot and ten high flush draw, winning play buddy. so if you bet 800 and he pushes you are getting three to one....i would liket to say i lay down there, but i pay off donkeys, probably out of frustration, when i have a good hand....leak. anywho, i cant bet less than half pot on the river b/c i feel like betting less invites a raise; however, if this guy i loose passive, maybe we can bet 600ish and safely fold to a push 1.) b/c we are getting worse odds on out money 2.) and we have a little less invested in the pot. tuff spot man, i probably pay off here as well against this guy....need to work on that.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

I think this as a clear check-call, the loss of getting raised big is way bigger than a occasional pay off you get from a worse hand, because you have to bet small on this river(otherwise worse hands wont call often)So you stand to lose a lot when behind and win little when ahead, plus you might induce a bluff

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
uhhhh, resluts suck. donk alert. gut shot and ten high flush draw, winning play buddy. so if you bet 800 and he pushes you are getting three to one....i would liket to say i lay down there, but i pay off donkeys, probably out of frustration, when i have a good hand....leak. anywho, i cant bet less than half pot on the river b/c i feel like betting less invites a raise; however, if this guy i loose passive, maybe we can bet 600ish and safely fold to a push 1.) b/c we are getting worse odds on out money 2.) and we have a little less invested in the pot. tuff spot man, i probably pay off here as well against this guy....need to work on that.

[/ QUOTE ]


if you bet 800 and he raises all in, you are getting 5-1 on your call.

Re: 10/20 Fired two barrels and the flush comes.. now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uhhhh, resluts suck. donk alert. gut shot and ten high flush draw, winning play buddy. so if you bet 800 and he pushes you are getting three to one....i would liket to say i lay down there, but i pay off donkeys, probably out of frustration, when i have a good hand....leak. anywho, i cant bet less than half pot on the river b/c i feel like betting less invites a raise; however, if this guy i loose passive, maybe we can bet 600ish and safely fold to a push 1.) b/c we are getting worse odds on out money 2.) and we have a little less invested in the pot. tuff spot man, i probably pay off here as well against this guy....need to work on that.

[/ QUOTE ]


if you bet 800 and he raises all in, you are getting 5-1 on
your call.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea i noticed that reading another post, but thanks. IMO you miss value when 55vpip is holding weaker hands, therefore I bet river and just pay off when he pushes. Right or wrong I cant check fold to this guy.