400-800 hand
 

I played this hand in a good 400-800 game at Bellagio last night. John D'Agostino (sp?) is to my immediate left and has called or reraised almost every single time I have raised preflop. This may just be a coincidence but I'm not sure. My image (as far as I'm aware) is relatively tight...I have been raising maybe what appears to be very frequently preflop, but all have been the typical raising hands, nothing out of line. John has cold-called my UTG raises w/ hands as weak as A5s next in and has been playing very well postflop.
I don't remember the exact cards in the hand but the important details are here. I raise JsJd UTG, John coldcalls, a loose BB calls. Flop is KQ5 w/ two hearts. Checked to me, I bet, John calls, and the blind folds. Turn is an irrelevant small card (maybe a 3 or something). I bet and he calls. River is a third heart (8 maybe?). I check, John bets, and I fold.
Any thoughts or standard?

Re: 400-800 hand
 

Perhaps he was doing something like this to you:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue6/Bvt0506.html
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 400-800 hand
 

i'd be sorely tempted to check and fold on the turn. One can be fairly certain he's not calling with a small pair on this flop, and it is very likely you are either beat or he has a huge draw to beat you. Given the pot size, I am not sure it warrants any more action. Your hand has to win 1/4 of the time if there's no river bet, but 2/5 if there is a river bet, I don't see it happening that often. I don't play this high, but I suspect he's aware of his image to you by his frequent participation in the pots you play, and that he can adjust accordingly.

Dan Z.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

I've played with John, and I don't like this fold much once you got to the river. I have to admit that I'm surprised you didn't get raised on the turn.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

I think there is a very good chance you got bluffed. I've played w/ John a lot, and the fact that you say he likes to three bet or call your raises means he thinks he can often play you off hands.
There is a good chance that he only had JT, and no flush. If he had AK or AQ he likely would have 3-bet pre-flop. JT sounds like a likely call hand for him in this situation. There's a chance he may've made a flush, but the pot is certainly big enough to call the river on your part. Do you often go to the river in situations like this and then fold for one more bet? If you do, I can guarantee he would've picked up on it.
Much of your post talked about how you've been playing pre-flop (raising w/ solid hands), but never talked about how you were playing post-flop. Frankly, for expert players, how your opponent plays post-flop is much more important. And playing too tight (folding too easily) post-flop is, when up against someone like jdag, a more costly tendency in the long run than calling too much.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

Standard considering you have two Jacks, making JT unlikely for him. Your line is very consistent with what you actually have - he wants you to call.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

it's amazing that you're playing 400-800 and you have to ask this question.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

I can't believe you aren't playing 400-800 at Bellagio this week. Or maybe you are now.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's amazing that you're playing 400-800 and you have to ask this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please take your garbage elsewhere.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

It's almost gauranteed he doesn't have a flush draw. The question on the river is whether hes value betting a Q (or naybe slowplayed K) or bluffing/ value betting a worse hand than JJ. I think there are enough bluffs or value bets with a hand like TT to warrant calling.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

my point was that this is such a no-brainer that even an idiot like you could come up with the right answer.

now scoot on back to your 3-6 game.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

not me. I don't like it here. I just came to town to play the big one.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

How convenient that you choose to agree with my answer after I posted it before commiting to any opinion of your own.

Maybe if the oppopnent was unknown this would be a no brainer but the fact that it is against a specific person makes it at least semi-interesting.

I remmeber a few years ago when I would look forward to reading your posts. Back then they were actually constructive. How sad it is to see you fall so low.

Come take a shot at the 400-800 mix game sometime this week. Maybe after being knocked down a few pegs you'll see the error of your ways.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

hi bruce

no, not a good fold. your action closes but it's more an issue of having to call because of how you played the hand. your opponent knows that you have something like TT or JJ, possibly AQ. he also thinks that you think he thinks you have something like that, even if he is holding AQ or TT or JJ. if you fold, you are telling him that you will release a reasonable hand heads-up and that would be very bad for your session. when you factor in the possibility that he might be trying to get you to fold when he betsout like that, and not call, a little weaker than JJ and you can start considering whether or not to check-raise. but your JJ can stand a showdown.

One thing I want to add
 

I'm not sure why most people that responded have the impression that I was letting John blow me off my hands. In fact, the opposite was probably more true for the session. I was probably calling him down too much on the river (and he was doing a good job of value betting).

Many of our hands throughout the night had me leading on the flop w/ the best hand, leading the turn, and check-calling the river w/ a hand that was no good by that point. Its just sort of the way things were going last night, and I'm sure in almost all of my hands John thought I was checking the river w/ the intention of calling. Because of the many hands we played against each other throughout the night, John would be crazy to think that my river check in this hand meant there was a good chance I was folding to a bet.

So w/ a little more background, is folding still so bad?

Re: One thing I want to add
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why most people that responded have the impression that I was letting John blow me off my hands. In fact, the opposite was probably more true for the session. I was probably calling him down too much on the river (and he was doing a good job of value betting).

Many of our hands throughout the night had me leading on the flop w/ the best hand, leading the turn, and check-calling the river w/ a hand that was no good by that point. Its just sort of the way things were going last night, and I'm sure in almost all of my hands John thought I was checking the river w/ the intention of calling. Because of the many hands we played against each other throughout the night, John would be crazy to think that my river check in this hand meant there was a good chance I was folding to a bet.

So w/ a little more background, is folding still so bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking and calling a lot on the river after leading flop and turn is not a good thing. You allow him to play his hand perfectly on the river when you do that.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

there is one other option which is to checkraise the river when he bets. the main benefit might be he will now dump a Q or even a weak K rather than tolerate the embarassment of calling one more bet having been played so badly. since the player is a young hot shot type who might pride himself in how good he plays this has an extra chance of working. and even if he does call (presumably with a better hand, but who knows sometimes maybe not) the whole table now sees that youve made a crude strange play that will make an impression on them and serve to confuse them on later hands.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

Snakehead what is your problem lately? You must be running real real bad, because your attitude is consistently negative. I remember u taking a shot online a few months back. I played with you a bunch. Havent seen u in those games lately so I assume u arent able to win on there. Now u are taking a shot at posters who u have NO CLUE ABOUT. EZCheeze is one of the best young poker players out there today. Besides that he is a real good guy who is impossible not to like. He has blitzed through the limits and now plays big mixed games and beats them. He also has some very impressive tournament results (2nd in a WSOP event this year). I would take EZCheeze's action any day over yours Snakehead and I would read anything he posts too over the negativity that you spew around these days. 2 years ago when I was moving up the limits and religously reading Mid/High u were a good poster, it is kind of sad what has happened.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is one other option which is to checkraise the river when he bets. the main benefit might be he will now dump a Q or even a weak K rather than tolerate the embarassment of calling one more bet having been played so badly. since the player is a young hot shot type who might pride himself in how good he plays this has an extra chance of working. and even if he does call (presumably with a better hand, but who knows sometimes maybe not) the whole table now sees that youve made a crude strange play that will make an impression on them and serve to confuse them on later hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post.

I like this line or even just betting better than check/calling or check/folding in this spot.

The way the hand played out, when you check the river, he (and everyone else at the table) knows damn near exactly what you have. Whether you call or fold afterwards is really pretty immaterial after you get to this point.

I think a check/call or a check/fold in this spot does some serious damage to your image/meta-game.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

It's called ego brother. Some it hits harder than others.

PokerPrince

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is one other option which is to checkraise the river when he bets. the main benefit might be he will now dump a Q or even a weak K rather than tolerate the embarassment of calling one more bet having been played so badly. since the player is a young hot shot type who might pride himself in how good he plays this has an extra chance of working. and even if he does call (presumably with a better hand, but who knows sometimes maybe not) the whole table now sees that youve made a crude strange play that will make an impression on them and serve to confuse them on later hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking right along these lines but I kept my mouth shut because, to me, $800 is more like what I lose in a bad night than one big bet.

SpaceAce

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's almost gauranteed he doesn't have a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do say this? Are you assuming he would have raised the flop or turn?

Luke

Re: 400-800 hand
 

It seems rather unlikely he has a flush or a K. So it seems like either a monster, a bluff, or a Q valuebet. Yeah thats a fairly wide range but I fold the river in a spot like this about once a month against far more straightforward players.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

We still love you Mr. Snakehead.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

This hand is not clear cut.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

you can do better than that. you're supposed to challenge me to play heads up.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is not clear cut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you gotta remember that he only needs to win about 1 in 8 times in these situations to show a small profit.

Let's say there's a third chance he made a monster (flush or set or top two), a third chance he's value betting a Q, and a significant chance that he's value betting a worse hand or bluffing.

I think if you had to pick extremes, always calling in this situation would never be that bad whereas always folding could be a big mistake.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

I'm so sorry I haven't lived up to your expectations. but I guess I'm the only one who thought the original post is just a notification that the poster is playing 400-800. as a poker question, it is quite lame. as for mr cheese, he attacked me out of nowhere, probably because he thought I insulted his friend. he may be a very good player, but he is obviously very full of himself. sounds like he fits right into the vegas poker scene.

in the future, I'll try not to post what I'm really thinking.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

"I guess I'm the only one who thought the original post is just a notification that the poster is playing 400-800?"

but why would anyone here care what limit some new poster is playing?

next week ill post some gnarly 8-16 hands then youll all see what sort of high limit poker ive been playing.

anyway im very curious to know what line you think hero shouldve taken snakehead because it's not obivous to me and i respect your opinion more than anyone at higher limits.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you had to pick extremes, always calling in this situation would never be that bad whereas always folding could be a big mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

very well put. I could have saved myself some grief if I had just said something like that. at any rate, folding here is anything but standard, as the op seems to think.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

against a tricky player who has been playing a lot of hands, I would check and call the river. there's too much money in the pot to fold to a bet, and I wouldn't want to be raised out so I wouldn't bet the river. you would have to be very sure you were beat to fold here.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

Sorry to sidetrack the thread for a moment, but a quick question regarding games this big:

How do you buy into them? Do you literally have to show up to the casino with $40K in cash, or is there some kind of bank transfer type thing that is available? I feel a little weird carrying enough cash around to play $60-$120.

FWIW, I'd have looked him up (even moreso if it was online), but my opinion is more than likely irrelevant in a hand like this.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played this hand in a good 400-800 game at Bellagio last night. John D'Agostino (sp?) is to my immediate left and has called or reraised almost every single time I have raised preflop. This may just be a coincidence but I'm not sure. My image (as far as I'm aware) is relatively tight...I have been raising maybe what appears to be very frequently preflop, but all have been the typical raising hands, nothing out of line. John has cold-called my UTG raises w/ hands as weak as A5s next in and has been playing very well postflop.
I don't remember the exact cards in the hand but the important details are here. I raise JsJd UTG, John coldcalls, a loose BB calls. Flop is KQ5 w/ two hearts. Checked to me, I bet, John calls, and the blind folds. Turn is an irrelevant small card (maybe a 3 or something). I bet and he calls. River is a third heart (8 maybe?). I check, John bets, and I fold.
Any thoughts or standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

after reading the c'r the river post i feel like i did when i just read the post for the first time...i dont like either option of c'f or c'c...

i do like c'ring more but am actually less likely to do it vs. a guy who will almost want to call for sheer information (and who probably would)...to me this takes a lot of the value away when he folds AQ or QJs. c'cing is good because it buys you future river folds when he expects you to call (i think you are very likely in a -ev calling spot here). c'fing i think is correct on ev grounds in a vaccuum.

-Barron

I don\'t really get.....
 

a lot of the debate. We have defined the villan as someone who may not be playing a premium hand here. Since our villian is not a donk, we can assume he is doing this becasue he thinks he can outplay the hero post flop (is there any other explanation?)

Thus the river comes and he could have a whole lot of random hands that we would not normally expect from a cold caller - thus K or Q is not certain. Can you say floater?

Against a predictable opponent I can understand the discussion re: folding (i.e. what could he bet that hero beats). But we have defined this player as someone that we have to call against. To me this seems like me posting, UTG raised (total LAG but plays/bluffs pretty well post flop), I 3 bet UTG+1 with KK. Flop comes A58, utg bets hero folds. Standard?

Re: I don\'t really get.....
 

I'm pretty sure the point is that OP is playing 400/800 against a name player. That is all.

Re: I don\'t really get.....
 

I think that it is highly likely that you are facing a semi-weak king or queen. I agree that in a vaccuum it is correct to check-fold, but I would call for information and to give the impression that it won't be easy to bet me out. You beat TT, 99 and JT. JT and 99 are highly unlikely. So I guess I'm advocating what I think is a -EV play for a chance at +EV later.

Re: I don\'t really get.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is highly likely that you are facing a semi-weak king or queen. I agree that in a vaccuum it is correct to check-fold, but I would call for information and to give the impression that it won't be easy to bet me out. You beat TT, 99 and JT. JT and 99 are highly unlikely. So I guess I'm advocating what I think is a -EV play for a chance at +EV later.

[/ QUOTE ]

This level is so over my head it's ridiculous.. but somewhat of a theoretical question:
Couldn't you derive a fair bit of value *from* him thinking he can push you off on the river? Against an average opponent - who this guy obviously isn't - you should be able to get some value check-raises in.
I guess what I'm thinking is that it often makes more sense to just take advantage of the image you've established than to make plays specifically to establish an image. That said, I can see how preventing him from pushing you around would be more useful than having him maybe bet a weaker hand on the river..

Re: 400-800 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you had to pick extremes, always calling in this situation would never be that bad whereas always folding could be a big mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

very well put. I could have saved myself some grief if I had just said something like that. at any rate, folding here is anything but standard, as the op seems to think.

[/ QUOTE ]


and if calling is better than folding after checking, then OP would only need a very small success rate of jdag folding a Q here to make c'ring better than calling...im starting to lean towards a c'r overall from a close call.

-Barron

Re: 400-800 hand
 

You have to call for two reasons. First and not as important there is a chance your ahead (although probably not) Second and most important for information. John has been from the sound of it outplaying you all day. You cant understand his plays call here and see what he cold called with what he was betting at you with. Was he beeting the flush draw? Did he have and overpiar? or was he simply bluffing? Even though its steep you should pay one more BB bet to see it. No Doubt.

Re: 400-800 hand
 

I'm still searching for the players that folding anything other than a bluff to a river c/r.