Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero ?

How much value have I got here? Dead to any Ace, possibly dead to the flush the whole way, is this even a call against 2 opponents? Anybody find a raise here?

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

is there a reason you thought Q9 off suit was a good hand to play in the button?

editted because whether it was Q9 or Q8, the question remains the same [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

Dude. Please. It was Q9o!

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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How much value have I got here?

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At least as much as when you limped preflop with Q9o.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

I don't like the pf play. Flop, I'd play the same. You are open ended, yes there is a flush draw on the board, but that doesn't mean there is a flush out there. If you were looking for a raise, it would be on the turn, folding to a reraise. You just improved to top pair, MP1 could very well have been betting his pair of jacks or tens to this point. However, looking at it again, you are last to act and I don't think you have any fold equity here. So, no I wouldn't raise the turn.
River, I think you are no good here against two people, but I make the crying call expecting to lose.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

Why would we be raising for fold equity? MP1 bet out on the flop which was jack high and 3-flush. He could have the flush or flush draw, a pair of jacks or tens, or a straight draw. I'm raising the turn because I figure I have the best hand until I am given reason to suspect otherwise. Not to mention that Hero has a redraw to a better hand.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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How much value have I got here?

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At least as much as when you limped preflop with Q9o.

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OK, so I loosened up a bit on the button after a handful of limpers - point taken, get over it.

Any thoughts on the post flop action?

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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How much value have I got here?

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At least as much as when you limped preflop with Q9o.

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OK, so I loosened up a bit on the button after a handful of limpers - point taken, get over it.

Any thoughts on the post flop action?

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Ok. You didn't ask about the turn, but I'd raise. Represent the made straight or flush, and try to take it down there, or see who bites. If 3-bet, call and fold the river UI. Either way, it'll change the texture of the river.

The way you played it, you have to call the river. You made your hand (if you were playing just for the 8, you didn't have the odds to call the turn), you're closing the action, and it's one bet to you in a good-sized pot.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

you should fold the flop. you're down to 6 outs and that's if there isn't a flush already, so you're not getting odds to call down with your outs.

since you've loosened up (as you noted) preflop with a call, you might as well loosen up on the river too and call with your ass-end straight.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

I think I fold the turn. At the very best, you have only 6 outs (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] are not outs). On top of that, you may be drawing dead to the flush, and with that Q falling, you may be drawing to chop. Six outs is pretty optimistic. Your pot odds are 6.5:1, and hitting a 6 outer is 6.67:1. I guess you might make up one extra BB on the river if he bets into you again and you call and win, but you're on the hairy edge if you give yourself the most optimistic number of outs. Folding is better in this small pot.

The flop call is more OK because you're getting better odds and not likely to chop at that point. Even then, you're getting 8:1 (good for 5 outs) not closing the action and there's a chance that you're drawing dead, or that a fourth diamond falls after you hit your draw. I guess it's marginal, but I wouldn't feel too happy about doing it.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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since you've loosened up (as you noted) preflop with a call, you might as well loosen up on the river too and call with your ass-end straight.

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I'm not really on board with this logic, though I do think the river was worth a crying call.

There were conditions preflop that made loosening up a decent move (position and callers); I'm guessing you know this, but just won't let go of the preflop limp. Whatever. That has nothing to do with the river call.

Flop fold would have been ok, but I don't hate the call either.

Boz's suggestion to raise the turn is a good one, helps me to figure out what's up on the river. Still would have been a tough call on the river after calling a turn 3-bet, maybe even a fold.

I love talking about how much I suck at poker.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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Boz's suggestion to raise the turn is a good one, helps me to figure out what's up on the river. Still would have been a tough call on the river after calling a turn 3-bet, maybe even a fold.

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I think if you are going to raise the turn you should really consider folding to a 3-bet.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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There were conditions preflop that made loosening up a decent move (position and callers); I'm guessing you know this, but just won't let go of the preflop limp.

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I don't agree with this statement... more callers is not what you want with this hand, it performs better with fewer players as it really only has marginal high card strength and moderate connectivity. It's a great hand against 1 player, decent against 2, but with more limpers it becomes pretty terrible.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

What about raising the flop? This gives Kx and Ax a chance to fold (I know they folded anyway, but you didn't know that when you made your call). It could also get you a free card, potentially. If you get 3-bet, I'd call down if I hit the straight with a non-diamond, or else fold.

On the turn, the way the hand went down, I think I would fold. Even though you "improved" to TP, I wouldn't make an overcall here, and too many outs are tainted to raise. The Q really put you in a tough spot.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

Everyone is saying the preflop call sucks. I think it's certainly marginal, but not as bad as everyone seems to think. I generally don't make this call myself, but will call QTo. Overall, I think this preflop call is slightly profitable to slightly unprofitable depending on how yr postflop game is compared to that of yr opponents. (Personally I like a bigger preflop edge.)

I'm torn between raising and calling this flop. It depends on the table. It's impossible for me to say which I think is correct since you did not present any reads. With no reads I lean towards calling and hope it is not raised behind me.

On the turn I think is where you should let this go. As you can see, the value of yr draw has gone way down, and this, combined with possibility you are drawing dead in a fairly small pot, not to mention yr draw is now ass ended, make this an easy fold.

The possibility of the river card is why I would have folded the turn. Call and hope to see 2 pair.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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Boz's suggestion to raise the turn is a good one, helps me to figure out what's up on the river. Still would have been a tough call on the river after calling a turn 3-bet, maybe even a fold.

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I think if you are going to raise the turn you should really consider folding to a 3-bet.

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Interesting. My initial response was raise/fold, but then I considered the table-image thing and decided that throwing one more in and check/folding the turn UI was a better, uh, investment. I could really go either way with it, tho.

Re: Counterfeited by the turn, hit my draw on the river
 

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I'm torn between raising and calling this flop. It depends on the table. It's impossible for me to say which I think is correct since you did not present any reads. With no reads I lean towards calling and hope it is not raised behind me.

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This is an interesting point, with 6 players raising could definitely be a better option on the flop here.