AK call down with turned tptk?
 

villain is a 20/6/1.5 er, textbook tag - pretty ABC

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.70 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

yes?

raise the turn? raise the river? just call down?

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

Definently raise the turn.. I would have probably raised the flop too.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Definently raise the turn.. I would have probably raised the flop too.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. care to explain why you'd raise either?

edit: btw, raising the flop sucks.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

raise the turn? raise the river? just call down?

From the way villian played it and your definition of him, he has either the same hand as you or KK or AA.

Most of the times he has you beat. I doubt he would play JJ or 10 10 this way or capping with any hand having a 7 or 44.

I like your line a lot.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

I don't see anyplace where a raise would be smart. you are either beat badly on the turn, have the same hand, or way ahead and he caught up on the river.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

thanks mike,

just a sanity check here. villain rivered a set of queens, i thought maybe raising the turn was the better play. i'm <font color="red"> -.39 </font> bb/100 with AKo through my 1st 4k hands at 5/10. probably just variance but i'm losing with AQo too <font color="red"> -.86 </font> bb/100. i'm going through the hand histories now to find any where i might be spewing.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

just a sanity check here. villain rivered a set of queens,

If you had raised the turn he would have could and then he would have check raised you on the river.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

i don't know if he's calling that turn raise that often but i see your point.

btw, me and joshuad are gonna be down the borgata on saturday the 23rd playing 6/12. hope to see you there. pm me if you can make it.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

Why call this flop? You're behind everything this villain would cap with except AK, you have no backdoor draws, and you may well be totally dominated (or completely dead) to AA or KK.

If you ARE going to play it, you're raising it - not calling. See where you are...if you're 3-bet, you're folding UI on the turn.

On the turn...this is something I'd like answered, and I haven't yet looked at the other posts, so I'll do that now.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why call this flop? You're behind everything this villain would cap with except AK, you have no backdoor draws, and you may well be totally dominated (or completely dead) to AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm drawing pretty live against QQ and JJ, plus i'm tied with AK. it doesn't mean i'm committed to a showdown because i call a flop bet, and i'm getting 14.4 to 1 to see the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
If you ARE going to play it, you're raising it - not calling. See where you are...if you're 3-bet, you're folding UI on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't like raising this flop at all. i'm probably folding on the turn UI either way, so why should i charge myself an extra BB to do it? seriously, what good does raising do for the rest of the hand?... i only have Ace high against a preflop capper.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

Raising gives you the very real possibility of a free turn and river, and it also lets you know with some more certainty whether your A and K outs are even any good.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising gives you the very real possibility of a free turn and river

[/ QUOTE ]


a flop raise is gonna get 3-bet here way too often to make it worth trying for a free card.

[ QUOTE ]
and it also lets you know with some more certainty whether your A and K outs are even any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. say i raise the flop, villain 3-bets. how do i know he has AA/KK and not QQ/JJ? raising doesn't get you any information, only charges you more to draw.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

Seeing that his PFA is only 1.5, I wonder how often he's really 3-betting QQ or JJ against this level of pre-flop aggression by you (obviously, you or I probably would, but my PFA is much higher than 1.5 and I would strongly suspect yours is as well).

However, I do understand your reasoning here -- I suppose you really only do gain information if he calls the raise...his 3-bet may make it slightly more likely he's on AA or KK, but you are right that you can't be at all certain of that.

Calling down the turn and river seem like good ideas...at that point if he's AA, KK, or (once the river hits) QQ, at least you're not spewing. Tough hand. Good post. Thanks for the discussion -- made me really think.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

I like raising the turn and betting the river, if you get reraised than I go into call down mode.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Definently raise the turn.. I would have probably raised the flop too.


[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is spewing here. It just gets another BB in the pot for no reason. (Villian is going to 3-bet and lead the turn here the vast majority of the time).


I like raising the turn. If he's got a low WtSD, I might wait until the river, but it doesn't sound like this guy knows how to fold.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

I might raise the flop here, hoping to buy a free card on the expensive street if I want it. If Villain reraises on the flop, we have to call anyway. If a blank falls on the turn we can get away from it UI, or call if the pot is big enough to go for our 6 outer. Since we called on the flop I'm not sure what we're up against (TT, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQ, AJ). If Villain just calls the flop I think the K on the turn gives us a reasonable chance to have made the best hand here and we can forego the free card we were hoping to buy with our flop raise. In short, I would have raised on the flop, and react to Villain's response. Since we didn't raise the flop here, I have to raise the turn given that we've hit our K, and see how Villain reacts. I'm not sure I like calling down from the flop to the river in this situation. Am I totally off here?

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definently raise the turn.. I would have probably raised the flop too.


[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is spewing here. It just gets another BB in the pot for no reason. (Villian is going to 3-bet and lead the turn here the vast majority of the time).


I like raising the turn. If he's got a low WtSD, I might wait until the river, but it doesn't sound like this guy knows how to fold

[/ QUOTE ]


since I don't think we can lay this down on the turn, wouldn't the better play be to do as mr pink has done. We are tied with one hand, and slaughtered by two other of the villian's likely holding, and we are way ahead of QQ(on the turn at least). I don't think he'd three bet JJ PF there, but I could be wrong. either way, I think we are losing the least in a very marginal situation where we are gonna lose more often then we win. I also think the fact that this villian looks incapable of folding is more of a reason not to raise

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising gives you the very real possibility of a free turn and river, and it also lets you know with some more certainty whether your A and K outs are even any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted before reading this one, this is exactly what I meant. I think on the flop raise or fold is usually best. I usually will only call if I am way ahead and slowplaying or I have a good draw. In this spot, we don't know where we are, and I think a flop raise helps us to know where we are without having to call down on the expensive streets. I don't think its a definite that Villain 3-bets the flop either. If he's as tight as he seems to be, he might give you credit for AA or KK. When the K comes on the turn (hindsight I know), but when that card hits you have an opportunity to take the lead if he checks, or if you had raised. He may even have folded on the turn if you showed strength. Obviously, since I now know he had QQ, its reasonable to assume that he would have folded on the turn if you showed strength at some point. Long story short, raising the flop = debatable, raising the turn = a must.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

with a fairly drawless board and two overs that you are drawing to(thats right folks, AK is a drawing hand), peeling one off the flop as cheaply as possible is important here. once i had tptk i call down.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

Raise the river. and fold to a 3bet


Edit: or, for you tighter people, raise any non Q or J river, and call a 3bet.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

There has been alot of double speak and what if's in this thread, so I am just going to reset the pre-flop situation as MY line of thought. THIS player likely only caps with AA, KK, QQ, and AKs, right?--3 combinations of AA, 3 of KK, 9 of AK, and 6 of QQ. 1/7 you're drawing almost dead after the flop, 1/7 you are drawing to 3 outs (1 to 14, JUST BARELY odds to call), 3/7 you can chop (he's not folding the flop, and you have to risk a BB to get him to fold on the turn) and 2/7 you are drawing to 6 outs. Against this range of hands, you're way behind 4/7 of the time, and even 3/7 on the flop--that's way too expensive to raise, especially since you have to follow through on the turn. I think this is a clear fold on the flop. You only win 2 BB when he has QQ and you improve (let alone the sad possibility of what ACTUALLY happened on the river in this hand), 2 BB when you hit an ace against KK, you chop against AK, and loose 2 BB against AA (more if you follow the raising line, while he likely folds with the worst of it when he's beat with QQ--no value for raising there).

To me, this is just a classic situation of where AK actually loses money or chops when improving much of the time. Against QQ is the only time you can win.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]

since I don't think we can lay this down on the turn, wouldn't the better play be to do as mr pink has done. We are tied with one hand, and slaughtered by two other of the villian's likely holding, and we are way ahead of QQ(on the turn at least). I don't think he'd three bet JJ PF there, but I could be wrong. either way, I think we are losing the least in a very marginal situation where we are gonna lose more often then we win. I also think the fact that this villian looks incapable of folding is more of a reason not to raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Aw snap, I misread the read. I thought this was a "textbook LAG".

I like the way Mr. Pink played it.

I had like a 2 paragraph post typed up responding to you too, before I decided to go read over the OP and make sure I wasn't missing something. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
villain is a 20/6/1.5 er, textbook tag - pretty ABC

raise the turn? raise the river? just call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't fully take into account that Villain's raising standards are a bit tight. Given this fact, its reasonable that Villain holds one of the hands that crush you, namely AA or KK. However, we hit one of our outs on the turn, why not raise? Again, I advocated raising the flop for information / free card possibilities, but I see that perhaps that would be "spewing." I do think that on the flop raising or folding is best, isn't calling usually incorrect in this spot? However, once we make our hand on the turn, I just don't understand why we don't raise with tptk. I suppose that if we're behind to AA we're trying to lose as little as possible? However, can we narrow Villain down to just AA and KK given the preflop action? I have to raise the turn in this spot. Its unfortunate that Villain got really lucky on the river but I don't think our passive play is the way to go.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
villain is a 20/6/1.5 er, textbook tag - pretty ABC

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.70 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

yes?

raise the turn? raise the river? just call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position - just make sure a bet goes in on the turn and again on the river.

This hand is really very simple - as has been pointed out, on the flop you're rarely tied (AK), sometimes behind (to QQ), sometimes way behind (KK) and sometimes getting crushed (AA). There is no good reason to raise the flop here. He's not folding AK (especially since we're not following up on the turn). In order for the free card to work, our opponent can't 3-bet or stop-n-go the turn. If he does this just a small percentage of the time, we're costing ourselves money.

Now, on the turn, we're in a "way-ahead/way-behind" scenario (discounting the few times we're tied with AK, which slightly decreases our EV due to the rake). In this type of scenario, raising the turn is dumb - if we're way ahead, our opponent may fold and even if he doesn't, we're unlikely to get the extra river bet out of him. If we're way behind, he'll very likely 3-bet and lead the river. So we're looking at not only winning one fewer bet when we're ahead, but also losing two more bets when we're behind.

Played perfectly.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down the turn and river seem like good ideas...at that point if he's AA, KK, or (once the river hits) QQ, at least you're not spewing. Tough hand. Good post. Thanks for the discussion -- made me really think.

[/ QUOTE ]

aggression in the face of aggression isn't always the answer. a lot of posters on these boards are think checking or calling on any street is a crime against humanity, it's not. you seem like you're hear to learn and that's a good thing. keep posting.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

aggression in the face of aggression isn't always the answer. a lot of posters on these boards are think checking or calling on any street is a crime against humanity, it's not. you seem like you're hear to learn and that's a good thing. keep posting.

Awesome reply Steve Buscemiboy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

I dont see the point of a raise anywhere here.

Hands Villian will have that he caps:
AA-QQ, AK (probably more likely to be suited, but count the offsuits as well). You are only beating QQ on this turn. A lot of ppl will call a 3-bet preflop with AKo, so put more emphasis on him having AKs. If u do this, AA and KK dominate the AKs possibility.

You are tied or beaten here far more often than u are ahead.


One question though: say we add another party in here on the turn, anybody who wants a call raise it? Or still call down?

EDIT: The fact that he actually had queens here, is one of the rare times u are actually ahead. Nice river there.

Also the fact u have AKo and there is a K on the turn, I think takes quite abit away from him have AK.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

"aggression in the face of aggression isn't always the answer."

I don't think anyone said aggression is ALWAYS the answer, but duly noted. I was just considering an alternative way to play the hand. I didn't realize it was actually played perfectly and there is no alternative.


"a lot of posters on these boards think checking or calling on any street is a crime against humanity, it's not."

A crime against humanity? Now I know no one said that...also, I think in reference to ever calling or checking being a "crime against humanity" is UNDERSTATED... Ok, seriously speaking, I never, nor do I think anyone else, meant to imply that checking and calling is horrible all the time. I was just expressing my opinion and offering an alternative to the way the hand was played, thats all. After considering all the points in the messages that were posted recently, I now see that perhaps raising on the flop is overzealous, and raising on the turn perhaps too aggressive. I don't think raising the turn is "dumb" however as was suggested in another message. I tend to lean towards aggression post flop, especially when I hit one of my outs on the turn for instance, so that is just a stylistic thing maybe. I can see the benefits of both raising and calling in this situation. Mostly, I'm just trying to learn, like everyone else here, and the only way to do that is to express my thoughts. By no means was I implying that you played the hand "wrong" or anything like that, I apologize if it came off that way, I was just looking to get some feedback on the benefits / pitfalls of raising on either street as opposed to calling down.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

Avi,

Welcome aboard. Chill dude. Now I know no one said that...also, I think in reference to ever calling or checking being a "crime against humanity" is UNDERSTATED... Its an inside Two Plus Two joke. DS once replied to a post something to the effect of...not raising there is a crime against humanity".

Welcome aboard.

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

in no way was my reply in direct reference to anyone who posted in this thread. i was just pointing out something about the forum, and how when players starting out think "Tight/Aggressive" means betting and raising recklessly and then come up with reasons for it after they raise... such as "free card" or "to see where i'm at". basically, they know aggression is good but they're not sure where to apply it and when to turn it off. i wasn't taking a shot at you or anyone else.

as mike said, welcome to the forums. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Avi,

Welcome aboard. Chill dude. Now I know no one said that...also, I think in reference to ever calling or checking being a "crime against humanity" is UNDERSTATED... Its an inside Two Plus Two joke. DS once replied to a post something to the effect of...not raising there is a crime against humanity".

Welcome aboard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I didn't mean to come off too intense or anything like that, I am rather chilled to be honest as I'm sitting here in only my underwear in front of the AC... I was trying to make a joke myself though it probably was only funny to me! In any event, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't misunderstood in my previous messages. I wasn't implying that the hand was misplayed or anything, I was just throwing something out there to see how others would respond. Anyways, thanks for the warm welcome!

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
in no way was my reply in direct reference to anyone who posted in this thread. i was just pointing out something about the forum, and how when players starting out think "Tight/Aggressive" means betting and raising recklessly and then come up with reasons for it after they raise... such as "free card" or "to see where i'm at". basically, they know aggression is good but they're not sure where to apply it and when to turn it off. i wasn't taking a shot at you or anyone else.

as mike said, welcome to the forums. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks so much for that, I sometimes will be overly aggressive and it does get me into trouble... I don't think I'm necessarily reckless, but I do overplay my weaker made hands at times...if AK can be considered a weak made hand when it flops a pair... It seems any time I've posted a hand whereby I thought I was behind with say AQ with an A on the flop, and I've gone into "call down mode" people usually crucify me. If I put a particular player on a big hand, like AK when I have AQ in my previous example, people on this forum usually tell me I'm "playing scared" or something, even though I usually am pretty decent at reading hands, whether its live or online. As far as not knowing when to apply it / turn it off, I could use some work on those concepts. So yeah, I hope no offense was taken, I tend to lean towards aggression whether I'm playing poker or posting messages about poker...thanks for the feedback... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to lean towards aggression whether I'm playing poker or posting messages about poker... thanks for the feedback...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. no problem. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AK call down with turned tptk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling down the turn and river seem like good ideas...at that point if he's AA, KK, or (once the river hits) QQ, at least you're not spewing. Tough hand. Good post. Thanks for the discussion -- made me really think.

[/ QUOTE ]

aggression in the face of aggression isn't always the answer. a lot of posters on these boards are think checking or calling on any street is a crime against humanity, it's not. you seem like you're hear to learn and that's a good thing. keep posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am definitely here to learn. I've developed a playing style that I am winning with (through a total of a mere 90k hands)...but I am certainly a LONG way from "being there." This hand (and all the discussion) has been especially helpful to me, as a VERY similar situation arose earlier today...I lost a lot less than I might have due to the analysis here. So thanks for that.

I think I tend toward too aggressive on the flop, not aggressive enough on the river -- and somewhere in between on the turn. Still searching for balance.

-D