Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

I've recently moved up to the 5/10 full games. I'm sufficiently bankrolled ($4700) and have been a consistent winner in the past. Tonight I sat down at some tables at Empire, made okay wins at two of them, but at two of them I was getting killed. The tables were incredibly loose and aggressive, and many pots were approaching the 20BB point. Within an hour I had lost $400 between the two. I know that this is normal (only 40BB), but this isn't a thread where I'm looking for sympathy.

Problem was that I felt I was on the brink of going on a serious tilt because my solid hands were getting annihilated. I cut my loses, but am kinda disappointed I had to leave such a great game.

How do you guys relax the mind when in a situation like this?

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

I click the button that says "more chips." 40bb is substantial, but it's super easy to lose that much in an hour. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while you just loose, loose, and loose, you know? Maybe you're not comfortable at 5/10 even though you have the bankroll for it. Personally, I linger at limits lower than I have to for quite a while before I'm comfortable moving up.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

I know exactly how you feel man. One thing I like to do is cheer for the fish. Every pot they win is like money one step closer to me. (Even if it had a lot of my money in it..) Not saying that always works, but it helps.

Another thing to remember - more strategy than dealing with it - if a table is very loose, but also very aggressive, you really need to play tightly. You don't have to worry about appearing tight if they're insane like that. And if they do start to go passive when you're in hands, then you can start playing it like a regular loose/passive again, and you're golden. Anyway, it has the added benefit that if you're just playing 'tight is right' by the book, it's pretty hard to go on tilt. You can just tell yourself "This is the way to beat a crazy game like this. I'm waiting for a premium hand, then I'm getting paid off."
Check out the HEPFAP section about 'wild games'.

-Stretch

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

The only thing I disagree with is "...and then I'm geting paid off." If you don't want tilt, don't worry about when you'll get paid and stick to the premium cards.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

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I've recently moved up to the 5/10 full games.

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The tables were incredibly loose and aggressive, and many pots were approaching the 20BB point.

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First of all, the 5/10 is normally described by higher limit players as passive, and lower limit players as aggressive. It is important for you to realize that being new to this limit, the game may not have been as aggressive looking to the regulars as it was to you.

That said, it is certainly possible that you were in such a game. The main thing to remember in these games is that you will usually need to show the best hand to win, at least the first 8-10 hands that you show down, before you start thinking about bluffing on the end in a hand that you will have to show.

They aren't going to fold after putting 4-6 bets a piece into the pot unless you give them a real good reason.

[ QUOTE ]
Problem was that I felt I was on the brink of going on a serious tilt because my solid hands were getting annihilated. I cut my loses, but am kinda disappointed I had to leave such a great game.

How do you guys relax the mind when in a situation like this?

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Your solid hands may have been easy to read.

Remember that you are the new guy here. These guys may simply have had your number and you didn't give them enough credit.

If the losing hurts, then stop immediately. If you want to continue playing that limit, then take a break and reexamine your play in PT. If you can satisfy yourself that nothing is wrong, then continue.

If you can't tell, then post the problem hands and step back down until you get the answers you need.

Hope this helps.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Thank you very much for the help guys. Played again tonight and did better. Even though I had a pretty large downswing following an upswing, I didn't have the same types of feelings I had the day before. Ended the night up about 8BB. I'll keep all of your thoughts and suggestions in mind.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Yes, good point. Didn't think about that when I wrote it. That's in fact a big source of tilt at these sorts of tables; when you finally catch cowboys and t7o beats you with a runner-runner straight or something.

However, Over Time those hands will pay off at this kind of table, and since they're willing to give so much action, they'll pay well enough that you can afford to wait for them.
Essentially it's the opposite strategy to a very loose and *passive* table, where you can play a lot of suited connectors, suited aces and even kings, low pocket pairs etc, because you know that they'll pay off well *in comparison to what it costs to see the flop*.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

I've been in a similar situation a couple of times where I'm breaking even or winning on a couple of tight tables, and losing on a loose table that has the most fishy players. I have stayed on the loose table because I "know" that I stand my best chances of making the most money there.

I have suffered my biggest losses this way. In the most recent iteration of this, on one table I reloaded three times and lost 100 BB before I gave up. I think my play suffers and I get weak tight on these tables, even though I try to play my regular game. I may also go on tilt in some other small ways that I'm not even sure about. Now, I have decided to just take my small loss and get off these tables.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Here are two consecutive hands I had at a 5/10 table, I was trying to play as tightly and as aggressively as possible.

Kinda let my guard down on this first hand, only called that raise in the SB hoping for a jack. Caught the nut draw, and in my usual fasion juiced it for all it was worth, too bad I was drawing dead at the turn and caught the draw on the river.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

What do you think about this second hand? Pushed it too hard? I thought the aggression was needed on the first four streets, maybe a check behind on the river?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, UTG calls.

River: (13.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 15.70 BB

So its uh, (0.77 BB)/100 at 5/10 over the last 2017 hands. Just keep grinding at it?

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Read Mason's "Do big pots mean great games?" The title may be slightly different, but I'm close. It's in one of his essays books or GTAOT.

He emphatically states that the sort of game you described is NOT great. It's fun, but the swings are enormous, and the win-rate is not that good.

The skill factor goes way down in importance because pots become so large that the muppets' great weakness, staying too long, becomes less of an error and may even be justified. The pot odds justify staying with almost anything, making the game more of a gamble than Mason and most other conservative players would like.

Bluffing is so common and the pots are so big that you are forced to call or even overcall with weak hands. You can't bluff.

All in all, those games LOOK much better than they are.

Regards,

Al

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

I play NL and at baby stakes at that so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it really just comes down to tolerance.

It's kind of a cop-out answer, but basically, the more times you get sucked on (or have a great hand beaten by an improbable perfect hand), the higher your pain tolerance will be. After a while you won't see a hand as a win or a loss, only a correct move made at a correct time whose results on this particular hand are irrelevent.

In time you've seen so many swings you barely note them as a blip, be a machine whose purpose is solely to make the right decision, if you are properly bankrolled whether you win or lose this session doesn't matter. Become emotionally detached to your hands and your money, you invest when you have the odds to and as soon as you don't you let it go, regardless of how good your hole cards or the flop looked. You don't have to play to get even, you already are even. Once you reach this mindstate where the results don't matter to you and you are concerned only with making the correct decision, you can swim in these games a lot longer where you'll make a great deal of money overtime, even though there will be swings.

Bounce from these games as soon as you feel yourself steaming or tilting, you obviously have this self control which is a great thing to have. Carefully analyze hands from these tables to make sure that what you did was your average game and not steam or mal-adjusted play to awful opponents.


Sorry for the ramble, good luck.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

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40bb is substantial,

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No it is not. It is 10 bb per table. It's a rounding error. I don't know how you build a 5K bankroll, start multitabling at 5-10 and think a 40 bb swing is something that is troubling. I am confused by the original post.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

"How do you guys relax the mind when in a situation like this?"

By practicing the relaxation of the mind when not playing.

Consider the extreme and consistent ways you would prepare your body for competition if you were a professional athlete. That's how I view my mind when it comes to poker.

Tommy

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

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It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while you just loose, loose, and loose, you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to be one of those spelling guys but am really curious as to whether this is a joke, typo or more interestingly - some kind of non-freudian slip.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Welcome to my weekend. I must admit it does drive me insane when this happens. You just reload and say to yourself, "there's no way I should be losing here" and keep playing. Sometimes it just doesn't work out the way "it should".

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

[ QUOTE ]
Read Mason's "Do big pots mean great games?" The title may be slightly different, but I'm close. It's in one of his essays books or GTAOT.

He emphatically states that the sort of game you described is NOT great. It's fun, but the swings are enormous, and the win-rate is not that good.

The skill factor goes way down in importance because pots become so large that the muppets' great weakness, staying too long, becomes less of an error and may even be justified. The pot odds justify staying with almost anything, making the game more of a gamble than Mason and most other conservative players would like.

Bluffing is so common and the pots are so big that you are forced to call or even overcall with weak hands. You can't bluff.

All in all, those games LOOK much better than they are.

Regards,

Al

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I agree. I am constantly amazed when I hear 2+2ers talk about how "juicy" a particular game was and then learn that they dropped two or three racks in record time. I have played in many loose, wildly aggressive games and have experienced the big ups and downs that come with them. I've learned to adjust my play in these games and I understand how hand values change when 6 or 7 people are seeing every flop for at least three bets. Nonetheless, I find these games cause a lot of stress and create a lot of difficult decisions without really making up for it in terms of profit.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

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All in all, those games LOOK much better than they are.

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Thank you for the thoughts Dr. Schoonmaker. I'll look for Mason's essay next time I go to the bookstore. I'm not a fan of the larger swings.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

"How do you guys relax the mind when in a situation like this?"


valium.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
40bb is substantial,

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I don't know how you build a 5K bankroll, start multitabling at 5-10 and think a 40 bb swing is something that is troubling. I am confused by the original post.

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I may not have worded my original question correctly. I was just wondering what kind of strategies 2+2ers used to keep a level head after losing large amounts (absolutely, not relatively) of money to what some may consider suck outs.

Maybe a little background might give you a better idea of the forces that were playing a role in my original post.

I'm 18 years old and a recent graduate of my local high school. I will be working towards a Computer Science degree at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign this fall. I've been studying poker seriously for several years, but have lacked the discipline to be successful online.

I was pretty much just sliding through the last couple weeks of school, while worrying way too much about some girl that I went out with a couple times. Of course when I finally start liking her, she stops liking me (2+2=3???). Decided to give online poker another shot as a way to keep me occupied after school as well as for the money.

Cashed in $160 dollars and have built that up to $5000 by steadily moving up the limits while doing some bonus whoring.

Losing 40BB, $400 dollars in this case, is pretty significant for an 18 year old. I'll probably desensitize myself to the scale of this limit in another week or so, like I have in the past. And from what has been posted, the "great" games I was struggling in, maybe were not so great for me after all.

Thank you for all the thoughts! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Dr. Al:

You can always be counted on to come up with something that was just outside my awareness.

Thanks for being so smart.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

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I was just wondering what kind of strategies 2+2ers used to keep a level head after losing large amounts (absolutely, not relatively) of money to what some may consider suck outs. ...Losing 40BB, $400 dollars in this case, is pretty significant for an 18 year old. I'll probably desensitize myself to the scale of this limit in another week or so, like I have in the past.

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Looking at poker money in absolute rather than relative BB terms is unwise I think. It seems to me your in over your head at 5/10 unless you desensitize yourself as you said you expect to. The old adage about playing with scared money and all that.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Yeah, I agree. I think its coming around now. Playing scared is the easiest way to lose.

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while you just loose, loose, and loose, you know?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't want to be one of those spelling guys but am really curious as to whether this is a joke, typo or more interestingly - some kind of non-freudian slip.

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lol.. I was thinking the same thing.. but decided not to be a nit [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

I suggest you read this archived thread, it will help you understand why such games are very profitable and what you must do take full advantage of such games.

One of Clarkmeister's best.

After going through it, I hope it will make you feel better everytime players suck out on you.

Lawrence

Re: Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table
 

Well, I don't think you played Hand 1 particularly well. I think you should fold prfelop. I think you should check on the turn because you're clearly behind and you can't value bet with just the draw that you have. I also think you should 3-bet the river. My guess is UTG has AK.

Hand 2 I play the same way you did.