low limit hold\'em
 

I have a question that has been asked before, but I will ask it again because what I hear and what I see don’t mesh. The question is this: Are low-limit Hold’em games beat-able? I am going answer my own question and say no so I can pose another: What level can a solid, tight aggressive style win consistently at hold’em.
I have been playing seriously (almost daily) for 1 year. 99% of this play has been online and playing at the .50/1.00 – 1 /2 and some 2/4 limits. I have also played hundreds of low buy-in tourneys as well as about 10 live tourneys. I planned on 1 year to learn the basics a the micro-limits, have read many books and read 2+2 and other forums daily and now would like to go up in limits but what I see is not encouraging. I would like to start with 2/4 but it seems to be a battle with the rake and players that just want action and will play any cards. I was watching a 2/4 game a Party last night and 90% of the winning hands I noted at showdown were cards that I don’t play unless I’m in the blinds with no raise. Cards like Jxo 33, A3o, 10-5s, Kxo, Qxo, 95o and the list goes on. Those that played these cards would go from like $50.00 up to $150.00 and back down and back up they just play for action. There was a player I observed that folded most of his cards waiting for decent starters but when he played them one of the other 4 or 5 players with trash hands would stay till they hit on the river. I know this has all been said before, but when I read about people depositing 50.00 and turning it into a 4 figure bankroll I wonder if it is true or just a ploy to get more fish to deposit 50.00 to lose at the low limits? Sorry to say that and I am not directing this statement to anyone in particular. I am down about 200.00 for the year which I’m not complaining about, since poker is a very inexpensive hobby for me at this rate. But I say again, is it really possible to win at 2/4 consistently online or off ?

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

But I say again, is it really possible to win at 2/4 consistently online or off ?

Yes, it is possible. You seem very focused on starting hands... as if playing the right cards is a through ticket to big bucks. If you do indeed play appropriately preflop, them my guess is that you are too loose postflop. Do you routinely call turn and river raises, not believing that your opponent could play the hand that he is representing? My guess is also that you play too passively postflop... failing to bet and raise on the expensive streets when you have the best hand. Do you routinely check down top pair on the river? Would you consider betting second or even third pair for value on the river against the right opponents? Do you buy lots of small pots in the tight-passive games with flop and turn bets on very little or nothing?

Of course, I have no idea how you play... but these are very common mistakes that 2+2ers who are struggling with the low limits make. Given your results, though, I can virtually assure you that there are significant holes in your game. Please post hands and participate in the discussion on hands others have posted. I have improved immensely in the seven months that I have been participating actively in this forum.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

I find playing .50/1 to be extremely frustrating. Just like you said, there are like 80% seeing the flop and calling down to the river with nothing, and when you actually do get a good hand you are beat by a freak 58o. Where are you playing? Also you should consider not playing if the table doesnt look attractive to you. If you see a lot of aggression preflop and you just cant handle that type of play, go try to find a softer game.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

I've been consistently beating the 2/4 game at Party for the past 5-6 months, to the tune of 1.5 BB/hr. So I would definitely say it can be done.

During this time I've had two 100 BB downswings and a few more 50+ BB downswings, so obviously there can be quite a bit of variance, even for someone who is a winning player.

Out of curiousity, how many hours have you played in the past year? Knowing this will help to more accurately determine how likely it is that you are going through a bad run versus the probability that you need to improve your game.

Good luck...

-- Homer

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Yeah, I'm starting to think the same thing about the games I play in at my B&M.

At hold 'em, there is a $4 rake up to 10% and a $1 stupid jackpot drop.

Sometimes I can get on fire and beat the game up pretty good because I feel I'm better than most players.

However, here's the tables I just can't beat:

- Any table with a maniac. The one guy changes the whole table so much and it is so volatile that I just can't crack the game.
- any table where there is little to NO selectivity to people's starting hands...
- collectively you're an underdog to the field. Even AA only wins something like 1/3 to 40% of the time....

What's funny is that the 6-12 game at my B&M is MUCH tighter and tougher, but I enjoy that game SO much more. No one plays crap like K 2 off or little suited connectors or any Ace.

I can respect when I have A J and flop an Ace and get beat by a better hand like AQ or AK. Or if someone has a nut flush draw (not just any lame flush) or if they flop a solid set.... I am comfortable knowing I'm BEAT.

But last night I was getting beaten on. My top pair rarely held up because I was getting licked on runner-runner flushes, inside straight draws, and the board pairing to give someone a set.....

And I hate that more than anything.

Maybe that's what is holding me back from beating low limit hold 'em.
- the bad beats and the maniacs do alter my state of mind, I've got to be tougher.

But I sure like the predictability and solid play of the 6-12 game.
I like matching wits with people, not spinning the proverbial poker roulette wheel to see who hits the best hand.

That's enough.....

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Hey Bill, if 80% of the players are in there you want to be making hands that have one pair
hands drawing dead or practically dead. So the next time you get AJo, toss it in the muck.
And the next time you get AJs play. Play only pocket pairs and suited broadway hands. Now
when 6 people go to the river you're taking money away from them with a set or flush, and
they're taking (theoretical) money from each other with bottom or middle pair. You wont be
playing optimally, but I guarantee you'll win. If you want to learn to beat these games for the
max, you have to study hard. So you might as well study hard at beating tougher, higher
limit games instead, IMO.

Here's a favorite example of mine... "the point is when you get 5 or 6 callers... proceed
carefully."

You: AdKh Flop: Ks 8s 7c

Caller 1 -- 10h 9h
Caller 2 -- As 3s
Caller 3 -- 7s 5s
Caller 4 -- 6c 5h
Caller 5 -- Kc Qh
Caller 6 -- Td 8d

How many turn cards do you like??

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Thanks for the input - points well taken: I've got holes in my game for sure and should post more hands and participate. I'm not sure how many hours I've played, guess I should. I did get CPA to record sessions but have not kept up on it. I would guess about 300 hrs in ring games and 800 in tournaments - ball park. I'm now interested in developing my ring game though. I've deposited at party, dynamite, true, planet and paradise and propoker(for the bonus lol) and played all the sites that gave a free bonus. I prefer the overall atmosphere / games at party for ring and Dynamite for tourny's
Noted: table selection is a priority and adjusting play / starting cards is a must. Okay so it can be done ? What is an acceptable deposit to start at 2/4 online. ?

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

What is an acceptable deposit to start at 2/4 online. ?


I would say at least $150 if you want to consider playing for awhile. Watch yourself that you dont go on tilt if you are down, hand selection is vitale, just be patient. When you do have a good hand and hit it on the flop, play aggresively!

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Hi BBill.

First thing that you have to understand, is that you are beating the game right now. If you are down $200 after a year of playing daily, you certainly paid much more than $200 in rake, so you collected nearly as much from your opponents as you paid in rake. Congratulations. You just need to play a little bit better, and your hobby will be one with a positive cash flow.

This last year, you paid about 1 big bet per week to play 2-4 holdem. You have to be able to find at least one place each week, where you could charge your opponents 1 more bet, or you could save 1 bet, and all of a sudden, you are a breakeven player. Many of the situations where you could be more profitable, occur nearly every session, and if you find and exploit those, suddenly, instead of being a negative .05/BB per hour player you could be a positive .5 to 1.5 BB per hour player.

Post hands where you are unsure of what to do, or unhappy with the result, participate in the discussions here, and have fun.

Some players will say the rake is prohibitive at the 2-4 level, and it is in many cardrooms, but online, it is only 5%, and given the level of the competition, it isn't unreasonable.

Somewhere in this thread, you asked what is a reasonable bankroll for online games. I think a minimum would be about 100 Big bets, or $400 for 2-4. 100 big bet swings, are unfortunately fairly common, so I like keeping my total bankroll at about 300 to 500 big bets for the limit I am playing at, and I keep at least 100 big bets on each site that I play at. I bought in for $200 on paradise a little over 2 years ago, (for the third time [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] ), and built my bankroll playing .5/1.00. I never had to rebuy after that [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] , and I have used my paradise bankroll to buy in on the other sites. Now I play on five sites up to 5-10, and also live up to 8-16, and I cash out a little each month, and my bankroll is still growing.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Play only pocket pairs and suited broadway hands.

If the game is passive and loose... you can play far more hands than this profitably.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Are low-limit Hold’em games beat-able?

Over the last 2+ months, I've been taking a lot of time off after playing a full poker schedule for a year and a half. During those 2+ months, I've played about 100 hours of 4-8 for fun and have been averaging slightly over 2.5 big bets per hour.

The exact 2.5 bb/hr figure is not important because it is over a statistically irrelevent # of hours. However, during this time, I have come to an independent conclusion that the 4-8 Vegas games are beatable for 2 to 2.5 bb/hr for a true expert.

I'm seeing the games a lot differently than I did when I played low-limit for the first time. After (1) learing how to beat low-limits and doing it, (2) moving up to middle limits (mostly 20-40) and beating those games for a small amount, and (3) playing low-limits again, it feels sooooo easy to beat these games.

In retrospect, it's obvious that my overal poker skills were vastly improved by playing in the tougher middle limit games. By playing against toughter competition, I was forced to become a better player in order to win. When I returned to the easier competition of low-limit games, I was actually amazed at how easy it was to win.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

I would make a deposit of 100 BB's ($400). Note that I am not saying that this should be your total bankroll, just that this is how much I would deposit. I would have a total bankroll of 300 BB's, and if my 100 BB deposit ran low I would reload.

-- Homer

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Since you apparently stopped reading my post after that sentence, I'll paste what appears 2
lines later for you right here:

You wont be playing optimally, but I guarantee you'll win. If you want to learn to beat these
games for the max, you have to study hard.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

All responses noted and appreciated - and thanks for reiterating the 100 bigbet bankroll - I'll post some hands - and study hard !

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

The "search" function. Learn it, love it, live it!

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the game is passive and loose... you can play far more hands than this profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

He wasn't saying that you couldn't. Just that until his postflop skills improve to stick to a slightly tighter approach and gradually add more hands as he gets better.

Well that was my interepration anyway.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Dynasty (or anyone)

I found this post really interesting. Would you say that it's worth playing at a game where you (anyone) are just break-even for a while, for the sake of improvement? Suppose you were a winning 4-8 player but a break-even 10-20 player. Do you think it would be worth playing 10-20, making no money, for the sake of getting better, or would do you think winning at 4-8 and getting experience that way, while building a bankroll, is a better option?

I didn't phrase the question well, because I know it depends on if the person needs the money, but I'm just curious if you think losing, or breaking even, against good players is more valuable experience than consistently beating a lower game.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

You said that you are tight. You need to loosen up your starting hand requirements a bit and play more suited connectors and one gappers along with As And Ks. If the game is loose passive with not many raises than get in there and take some flops. Fold if you don't catch a good draw and don't chase like the idiots do.
I aagree with Dynasty. After playing 6-12 to 15-30 these low limit games are easy. You have to learn to adjust to a loose passive game. Your pocket pairs will not hold up against many opponents making your drawing hands a better play. You are probably not respecting raises post flop with your big pairs and call all the way to the river and are beat by two pair a straight a flush or when the board pairs someone will be holding that card. Your raises preflop do not get people out, but you should still raise because you have the best hand.
Tight agressive play will get the money, but you need to loosen up in low limit. Becuase of the size of the pots you can take more flops because when you hit you will get paid off big. Just add more hands to your starting hands and trow them away if they don't hit. Take the pot odds into consideration also. Make notes on all of the players. Learn to put people on hands and start respecting their raises. Never bluff and play straight forward.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

"Would you say that it's worth playing at a game where you (anyone) are just break-even for a while, for the sake of improvement?"

I firmly believe that it is worth it. Don't bang your head and get rolled in a game where you can't handle the stakes. But do take chances and play in tougher games from time to time and spend extra time analyzing the play of both yourself and your opponents during those sessions.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Absolutely. Its good to stretch yourself.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

i'm no great poker player, but i started in november, and have had pokertracker since january. my numbers say i earn 3.5BB per hour at the $2/4 full ring and $3/6 short handed combined. i suffered 1 downturn of 100 BB, and another of 70 BB. i feel my numbers are accurate because they are steady month to month. you are definitely doing something to cause you to be just break even. my guess is that you don't play aggressively enough when you are ahead, and that you call down too much when you feel you are behind. too many players think top pair with top kicker is the holy grail, calling turn and river raises with them way too much.

cheers!

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I found this post really interesting. Would you say that it's worth playing at a game where you (anyone) are just break-even for a while, for the sake of improvement?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's worth playing higher for a little while and then stepping back down.

I wrote that post more than a year ago. When I went into this thread, I didn't recognize how old the thread was until I was surprised to see I had already responded.

Believe it or not, I know think the low-limit games on the Strip are even easier to beat than I did a year ago. However, I think the 2.0-2.5 big bets/hour is still the ceiling.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
- collectively you're an underdog to the field. Even AA only wins something like 1/3 to 40% of the time....

[/ QUOTE ]

this is such hogwash, i wish i never had to see this stat ever again.

AA wins 1/3 of the hands in which it enters the pot with 9 other players and.........NOBODY FOLDS! this is a "no fold'em hold'em" stat misused way too often, because 22 is going to fold when the board is K T 9 rainbow. players fold, gentlemen.

cheers!

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe that's what is holding me back from beating low limit hold 'em.
- the bad beats and the maniacs do alter my state of mind, I've got to be tougher

[/ QUOTE ]

Dentist,

Pick up Alan Schoonmaker's book, "The Psychology of Poker". He has some great insight to what makes a maniac "tick" and how to counter that type of players style. It will also help with your mental attitude and help you see that you can indeed "beat the game" that has this type of player.

Play well. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Husk

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

I posted the original question “Are low-limit Hold’em games beat-able?” just over a year ago. Here’s an update of my progress since then. First let me say that at this time in my life poker is a hobby that I truly enjoy. I play only in my spare time though so I have not advanced as much as some of you will or have.
After reading the advice in this thread, and re-reading a few of my poker books I decided to learn No-Limit Hold’em and Heads-up. And yes, I found that low-limit games are beat-able.

I spent the next year playing Heads-Up sit-n-gos at various sites mostly stars, dynamite and UB. I've played
about 350+ 5.00, 10.00 and 20.00 tourneys 70% limit and 20% NL. I calculated my win rate overall at about 60 - 65%. I also played and won a Heads-up tournament, placing first out of about 20 players.
Overall I cashed out a few hundred dollars and came to the conclusion that making money playing HU sit-n-go’s is hard work, physically hard work but it is profitable.

Also I started playing NL/PL at Party when they still offered the .10/.25 PL games. Soon after they switched to .25/.50 NL/PL only and I continued to play. I played tight (seeing 15% - 18% of the flop) and really just waited for somebody to make a mistake.
In .25/.50 PL as per Pokertracker records I average about 6bb per hour ($6.00 an hour in Poketracker terms) I think this is about average to slightly below. I also started playing at the gaming club and some other prima sites where poker tracker does not keep track. I’ve done slightly better at these sites.
I’m still averaging about 6.00 an hour playing these games, I dropped some playing the .50/1.00 NL games and went back to the .25/.50.

I will say that playing NL/PL improved my Live limit game considerably. I recently went to Atlantic City where I did very well playing the 2/4 limit at the Tropicana, I also did well at the Borgata 3/6 limit and won a few bucks playing 4/8 limit at the Trop. I also did well at the Mirage 3/6 game a while back.

At this time I am considering getting back into playing online Limit but I’m taking my time and I’m in no rush to move up to the higher stakes. Right now I’m playing in the HULA tournament (2+2 heads up tournament that will take about 10 weeks from onset to completion.)

Bbill

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Congratulations! Nice to hear a longterm turnaround and success story!

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

In a loose game, it's usually very obvious when you are ahead, and when you are beat. That includes when you are ahead pre-flop with AA and then are way behind on the flop based on the cards and the action. My guess is that you are not acknowledging the fact that you are behind in multiway pots. You have to give up on your hand when you should know you are beat.

Also, my experience with very loose games with people playing everything from K2o to 26s, etc, from any position is that you have to be very patient. The nice thing is that when you have your winning streak, you get paid off again and again and again and again....

When I played more B&M, this was harder, since the dead-card periods can last for weeks when you only play maybe 8 hours per week.

Re: low limit hold\'em
 

Cool. I was thinking about this before I got out of bed this morning. I don't need to make the usual withdrawals that I make for a couple of months, I made the resolution to use the extra money to take some shots at higher games when it seems right.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

Search Function
 

Ok, I've always had one problem with the search function and I'm not sure if it's just a problem for me but it sucks and it happens on two different machines on two different networks.

Let's say I search by poster name: Clarkmeister within the last 1 year over all forums. The search should return hundreds of results over multiple pages, right? Well, I only get the first page of results. If I click next to view the next page it tells me my search yielded no results.

Is this just me or does everyone have this problem? Does anyone know of a solution?

Re: Search Function
 

That's a bug that sometimes happens, sometimes doesn't. I usually just change the "# of threads to show on page" to 100 instead of the default of 25. But it doesn't alway happen. Actually, now that you mention it, it may be just during the "user name" search.

Also note that the user name search is useless for any posts prior to the new software implementation in Sept. 2002.

Re: Search Function
 

Hah! Maybe that's why it always happens to me. I usually am searching by name when I'm searching and yes, I set the page to display 100.

I'll have to try some other searches in the future to test the functionality.

Re: Search Function
 

Yeah, its not the greatest engine in the world, but it is functional. I usually have a clue what post I'm looking for and type about 3-5 words with the "and" search function.