\"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

Howdy all,

So I spent some time at the MGM poker room in Vegas this past weekend. I am from Colorado, and in the CO poker rooms, as far as I know the rule is that if an opponent calls your river bet and mucks, you can ask to see his hand. But, you have to be in the hand to be able to do this.

At the MGM, at the 4/8 table I played at, jerkoffs that were not even involved in the hands were constantly demanding to see the cards of players who called rivers bets and mucked. And the dealers always complied.

Is this standard, can anyone at the table ask to see the hand of a player who called a river bet and mucked, even if they are not involved in that particular hand? If this is just the MGM policy then I'm through with the MGM. Or are all Vegas rooms this way?

Thx!

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

This shocked me this weekend as well, I thought it was anyone involved in the hand, but it seemed like everyone and their mother was asking to see cards.

(I was the guy with the pirate and big ass Aztec-style temple chip stack. I also liked spades.)

-d

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

Any player can request to see any hand that makes it to showdown regardless of whether the requesting player also made it to the showdown. As far as I know this is the rule everywhere in vegas and most places in the country for that matter. The intent of the rule is to prevent collusion but that is rarely what requesting players are asking to see the cards for!

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

A lot of cardrooms have that rule. Although one guy started asking a couple hands in a row to see the losing hand, and the dealer told him.. Okay you can ask every once in a while but you can't ask every hand, and the reason that they made the rule is to help with collusion. Atleast that is one dealer at cantebury said while we were playing.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of cardrooms have that rule. Although one guy started asking a couple hands in a row to see the losing hand, and the dealer told him.. Okay you can ask every once in a while but you can't ask every hand, and the reason that they made the rule is to help with collusion. Atleast that is one dealer at cantebury said while we were playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good for the dealer. I caught holy hell for pointing out to a $1-3 stud table that the reason for the rule was collusion. Serves me right for trying to convince a $1-3 table of anything.

But the floor did say that he wouldn't let someone do this several times a day. And to the OP, IIRC Foxwoods will let anyone ask to see it, in the hand or not.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
IIRC Foxwoods will let anyone ask to see it, in the hand or not.

[/ QUOTE ]The ruling I've always heard is that anybody can ask to see the cards, but if the WINNER asks, the cards are live. If a player outside of the hand asks, the hand is killed first.
-Sam

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I was right. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

From Robert's Rules.
[ QUOTE ]
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

[/ QUOTE ]-Sam

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I taught myself to toss them to the muck. All the cards have to do is barely touch the muck, and they cannot see your cards. Everyone who plays B&M should learn to do this.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

And prepare to listen to Annie Duke sprint her ass over from the Rio and bitch you out.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I taught myself to toss them to the muck. All the cards have to do is barely touch the muck, and they cannot see your cards. Everyone who plays B&M should learn to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great advice, but get a load of this....

I was about to muck my losing two pair when an extreme douche who wasn't in the hand (I won a huge pot off him and he was steamed) demanded to see my hand. I stuffed my cards into the muck and the dealer actually fished them out of the muck and showed them to said douchebag. Douchebag proceeds to taunt me saying I'd have to bury the cards deeper next time to avoid him getting to see them.

I can't say that I'll be going back to the MGM room. I used to really like it, but this trip the players just got under my skin with all the requests to see mucked cards, trash talking, berating fish, and what not. Its not the MGMs fault though, its a nice room and the staff is pleasant.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

Were you at the table Saturday night that was supposedly going 5 bets 6-way preflop on a regular basis? The dealers hated that table, my table was much more loose and fun.

I really only heard one guy berating another for bad play, and that was at 1/2 NL. He, however, did not criticize his own bad play when he went all in on a Q-high flop with Q-rag against my PF and flop raises with Aces.

-d

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I stuffed my cards into the muck and the dealer actually fished them out of the muck and showed them to said douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand that touches the muck is dead. I would never, ever, tip that dealer again. I would also call for the floor in this situation.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I stuffed my cards into the muck and the dealer actually fished them out of the muck and showed them to said douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand that touches the muck is dead. I would never, ever, tip that dealer again. I would also call for the floor in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

ANd then kick the dealer in da nutz?

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I stuffed my cards into the muck and the dealer actually fished them out of the muck and showed them to said douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand that touches the muck is dead. I would never, ever, tip that dealer again. I would also call for the floor in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think showing that it bothers you this much is more of a cost than showing down how you played a particular two cards, once.

And yeah, the hand is dead -- meaning it can't win the pot. You can still flip it over if it can be easily identified.

That being said -- the guy who called for it was an ass and I hope you busted him.

-d

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I stuffed my cards into the muck and the dealer actually fished them out of the muck and showed them to said douchebag.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand that touches the muck is dead. I would never, ever, tip that dealer again. I would also call for the floor in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a hand can be retrieved -- if it's not thoroughly mixed in with the muck -- most floormen will rule that it can be shown. I don't personally agree with this, but it's usually the way it happens.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I wrote two columns on this issue last year.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...02&m_id=88

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65550

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I'll be playing at the MGM in a few weeks as it is where we are staying.

It seems people asking to see is becoming more prevalent, so now I plan to call out the person asking to see the cards by asking him to first explain to me who it is he thinks I am colluding with or how I am cheating.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say that I'll be going back to the MGM room. I used to really like it, but this trip the players just got under my skin with all the requests to see mucked cards, trash talking, berating fish, and what not. Its not the MGMs fault though, its a nice room and the staff is pleasant.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you say it's NOT the MGM's fault??? Their floor should be discouraging people from abusing the rule. It's a privledge, not a right, and it can be suspended for overuse.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be playing at the MGM in a few weeks as it is where we are staying.

It seems people asking to see is becoming more prevalent, so now I plan to call out the person asking to see the cards by asking him to first explain to me who it is he thinks I am colluding with or how I am cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about doing that a couple times, but then I decided it was better
not to worry about it. No point looking like a jerk, or somebody that
responds to needling.

jafager

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I plan to call out the person asking to see the cards by asking him to first explain to me who it is he thinks I am colluding with or how I am cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you get better results at whatever limits you play than I've gotten at the tiny limits I play. I hope you get a better response, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

Funny you mention MGM. I had to sit through a lengthy discussion about this topic while sitting in a 4-8 game a couple weeks ago. It was nauseating.

Can everybody just stop with this?

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

i played the 4/8 at the mgm june 19-22 and didnt encounter this behavior.

On a side note, just curious if i played with any 2+2's while i was there. i was the young asian guy with a gray sweater and an ipod.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

Every room I've been in, if you're dealt into a hand, you can call to see a hand at showdown regardless of whether you make it to showdown.

Don't take it so personal.

b

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
that the reason for the rule was collusion

[/ QUOTE ]

Which I can almost gaurantee isn't specified this way on the rules board posted in your cardroom.

b

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote two columns on this issue last year.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...02&m_id=88

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65550

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this topic gets too much airtime and blown way out of proportion. Yknow what really slows the game? The discussion about the intent of the rule. Calling the floor over, etc.

When I go to showdown, I am fully aware that someone may ask to see my hand. So what? Most don't know what to do with the info anyways. One hand isn't going to reveal every tool in my box in the game. It doesn't bother me at all. I think the players who really get upset about this rule, generally, aren't that strong of players. Otherwise, something so petty wouldn't get them so bent out of shape.

There are better things to study and worry about than someone asking to see your hand.

b

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote two columns on this issue last year.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...02&m_id=88

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65550

[/ QUOTE ]

No disrespect to Michael, but Bob Ciaffone just wrote three articles about it in Card Player. He is re-writing this section in an upcoming version of Robert's Rules.

TT

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

A dead hand is different from a hand that can't be shown. If the cards can be found easily, then the dealer can show them.

This rule sucks, but it's the rule. If someone asks to see my hand, I ask them why they want to. I will then ask them who they think I was colluding with. Then I will request the floor to explain the rule to the player.

If the player continues to absue the rule, I will call it on the player every time the rest of the night.

I saw a couple of villains caught by this Saturday
 

I was playing at Foxwoods on Saturday. At the table next to mine there was a big commotion. Apparently two people had been involved in a hand and had been pushing back and forth(with other players in the hand also). They raised back and forth on the river until it was heads up. One player tried to muck his cards but a player who was not involved asked to see his cards.

Naturally, he had crap and was accused of colluding with the other player. They put up a fight, but the floor removed the mucking player from the game.

I recognized them both as card room sleazebags and angle shooters, but did not associate them together.

This was one case where the rule proved it is worth whatever trouble it causes when used improperly.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote two columns on this issue last year.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...02&m_id=88

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65550

[/ QUOTE ]

So, when are you going to get Party Poker to stop including the hole cards for everyone who made it to the showdown in the hand histories? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-Mike

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wrote two columns on this issue last year.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...02&m_id=88

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65550

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this topic gets too much airtime and blown way out of proportion. Yknow what really slows the game? The discussion about the intent of the rule. Calling the floor over, etc.

When I go to showdown, I am fully aware that someone may ask to see my hand. So what? Most don't know what to do with the info anyways. One hand isn't going to reveal every tool in my box in the game. It doesn't bother me at all. I think the players who really get upset about this rule, generally, aren't that strong of players. Otherwise, something so petty wouldn't get them so bent out of shape.

There are better things to study and worry about than someone asking to see your hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Bernie's right. I think almost all of the time they just want to see what you had, not how you play. I don't get into snits about this anymore, and it used to piss me off something royal.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wrote two columns on this issue last year.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...02&m_id=88

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65550

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this topic gets too much airtime and blown way out of proportion. Yknow what really slows the game? The discussion about the intent of the rule. Calling the floor over, etc.

When I go to showdown, I am fully aware that someone may ask to see my hand. So what? Most don't know what to do with the info anyways. One hand isn't going to reveal every tool in my box in the game. It doesn't bother me at all. I think the players who really get upset about this rule, generally, aren't that strong of players. Otherwise, something so petty wouldn't get them so bent out of shape.

There are better things to study and worry about than someone asking to see your hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Bernie's right. I think almost all of the time they just want to see what you had, not how you play. I don't get into snits about this anymore, and it used to piss me off something royal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here, I have learned to live with it unless the abuser is obnoxious. Then I'll use it against him to put the f*cker on tilt. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm rather good at tilting people, I think Joe Tall just experienced it first hand 2 weeks ago in Vegas when a local started asking to see hands at the river and the guy to his right was offended because he felt the old guy assumed he was cheating. He proceeded to spew chips, Good times...

PS: I'm all for mandatory showdown of all hands on the river if thats what it takes to have a faster moving table and a happier environment. I have nothing to hide.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I saw a couple of villains caught by this Saturday
 

[ QUOTE ]


Naturally, he had crap and was accused of colluding with the other player. They put up a fight, but the floor removed the mucking player from the game.

I recognized them both as card room sleazebags and angle shooters, but did not associate them together.



[/ QUOTE ]

One point for the good guys, great to hear.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

Speaking of instatilt, I really don't try to ever do this but I managed to get this one dude really, really angry at me in the MGM Grand 10/20 during the recent Sklanskypalooza.
Here's the hand. Basically, it was 3-way on the river with MaxPower in EP, Young Dude to my right, and me on the button. MaxPower checked, Young Dude checked, I bet, MaxPower checkraised, and Young Dude was thinking/talking out loud/showboating for a legit 30 seconds or more about his "agonizing" laydown. He didn't seem like he was going to be acting anytime soon so I said "clock" to the dealer.

Normally the dealers ignore me when I say this because they assume I'm joking. I don't really care what they do, but I kind of like it to get out there that whatever is going on is taking too long and someone should do something to make something happen.

Anyway, I had been pretty nice to this dealer (as I typically am) and he said something like "Time requested, player has one minute to act."

Anyhoo the young dude got super-pissed and threatened to call the clock on me every time, which is fine with me since I've generally thought out a few steps ahead and almost never take a noticeable amount of time to act. He mucked (it was clear he was going to, BTW), and proceded to get super-pissed at me.

I'm not one to do the whole "get the table on tilt because it'll make them play worse" schtick because when I play live I generally just try to have a good time and keep things friendly, but I also occassionally enjoy things when they get adversarial, whether I'm involved or not. This was one of those times.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not one to do the whole "get the table on tilt because it'll make them play worse" schtick because when I play live I generally just try to have a good time and keep things friendly, but I also occasionally enjoy things when they get adversarial, whether I'm involved or not. This was one of those times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully agree. There is a time and a place for everything in life... sounds like you found the right moment where it gave you (and the rest of the table) a slight edge.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I played with you a couple of times. I remember you were on a list for a 4-8 game one night and they opened a new table, but some dude who didn't get called sat down instead and screwed you out of a seat so they had to put you back on the list, right?

I was the guy wearing the Nike One hat, usually playing 3-6 and 4-8.

Re: I saw a couple of villains caught by this Saturday
 

If you think these guys are playing partners you could always call the floor and ask to see the hand. if they pass chips to each other that is a valid sign... There are teams of cheaters out there in the poker world..online and card rooms.. just make sure if you catch them you call the floorman.

this is a letter i wrote to pokerstars in a SNG [ QUOTE ]

pokerstars cheater part II

--- PokerStars Support <support@pokerstars.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thank you for your patience while we completed our
> review of the accounts
> of 'pok*laiguy' and 'jad*408'. We found evidence of
> tournament collusion in
> the form of 'soft playing.' These players appear to
> be friends, but they
> did not seem willing to eliminate each other from
> the tournaments they play
> together. Many players are not aware that 'soft
> playing' is against our
> tournament rules, however you should play as hard
> against a good friend as
> you would a total stranger. We found no evidence of
> other forms of
> collusion such as chip dumping, or sharing card
> information.
>
> Due to this 'soft playing' they have been
> disqualified from a tournament on
> our site, and we have now made them aware of our
> tournament rules. They
> will no longer be permitted to play on our real
> money tables together. They
> have also been warned that any future infractions of
> our tournament rules
> will result in the permanent closure of their
> accounts.
>
> Thank you for again for bringing these players to
> our attention, and doing
> your part to protect the integrity of our games.
> Please let us know anytime
> you have questions or concerns.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joanne
> PokerStars Support Team
>



[/ QUOTE ]

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played with you a couple of times. I remember you were on a list for a 4-8 game one night and they opened a new table, but some dude who didn't get called sat down instead and screwed you out of a seat so they had to put you back on the list, right?

I was the guy wearing the Nike One hat, usually playing 3-6 and 4-8.

[/ QUOTE ]


haha yea that was me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

i dont recall a nike one hat... but then again im terrible with recalling what people were wearing and such [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

anything else i might remember? did we ever talk? or any notable hands we were involved in?

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I'm not replying to the correct post, but that is one of the things I hate about UBB threads.

Anyway, in South Dakota apparently the law says that players do not have the right to see the losing hand.

This was brought up on Sunday night when the dealer showed a hand on the river that was mucked. The player was required to show first but mucked, another player asked to see the hand before he would show, after the hand the semantics were discussed and it reminds me to ask about it tomorrow if I go play... I am interested in the ruling at a well managed cardroom that has a floor on duty all the time, and in the ruling where the extra dealer rules when needed. Yay for 5 table or less rooms. If I remember I will ask around at the other place I play too. But as if what I was told is correct there is no collusion rule in effect here.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

The first time, let it go. The second time, what you do is toss your cards one at a time into different sections of the muck. The dealer will have a hard time fishing them out that way.

Re: \"I Wanna See That Hand\" at MGM Las Vegas
 

I was sitting at a 4/8 table for about 5 hours Saturday afternoon at MGM, and yeah, some guys were starting to ask to see cards.

I noticed it happened for the first time when we had a gal sit down, and someone wanted to see her cards. It kind of pissed me off. She seemed like a pretty good player, too.

Meep, I think I played with you for awhile on Friday. I was the guy with the old school Riviera chip on top of my cards.