KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Edit: Ok both these players in this hand have been raising their premium ands calling with others. I thought they were both sort of fishy and would fall for this trap. I got sucked out on, but maybe I didn't set the trap right.. Any thoughts?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (5.70 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (14.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17.70 BB

Did I fail to protect or is this just a bad beat? Would any of you play it differently?

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Not sure why you didn't bet the turn - afraid of QQ? Aside from the turn, I don't see how else you can play the hand. Certainly you are not folding, even when the 9 pairs on the river.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

What in the world in going on after the turn card falls?

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

WIthout any reads, this hand is impossible to diagnose. If you check the flop will at least one late position player bet? If you feel that this will happen a majority of the time, a C/R isn't a bad move, though, I would hate to see this get checked through and an A pop up on the turn. You need to lead the turn, IMHO, and call a raise, though, 3 betting is not a bad idea, esp if an agressive player raises you. And lead/call the river.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Ok...The idea is to get the maximum amount from my hand. Many players habitually bet when the raiser checks on the turn. I was pretty sure that the UTG had a queen so I decided to check raise to get maximum value. IN Sklansky's "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players" he says I should be checkraising the turn 60% of the time. Maybe I am misreading his words. Open to advice.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
was pretty sure that the UTG had a queen

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to have to share with my how you figured that out.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Well I looked at it this way. What hands would this player be playing under the gun. So far this player was raising with premium hands, and calling with others. And since there was no raising preflop, I tossed out 1010, and QQ. 99 is a possibility but if he was staying till the turn, I would just have to pay him off. Since I thought he would most likely raise me with TPTK to isolate me, I put them both on drawing hands. In fact, UTG did have QJ, and the other player had 89. If you had QJ would you have bet the turn? It's just something to think about. I thought they would bet if one of them hit a pair, and they did, and I C/R to get maximum value. THanks for any advice to help me improve my play.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
was pretty sure that the UTG had a queen

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to have to share with my how you figured that out.

[/ QUOTE ]

He looked into his soul.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Crispy:

I don't mean any offense by this, but saying that you think this guy has a Q in this situation is really ridiculous, and my question was simply rhetorical in nature.

Not betting this turn is bad whether your talking about value or protection.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

I dont think you played it too bad. Reason you lost this one was that MP1 was a donk. Bet out on the turn and hope UTG raises you so MP1 faces two cold.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Fiiine I will explain. I am sure most of you put your opponents on hands when you play. ALrighty, what am I afraid of trips, two pair, and sets. I don't fear QQ, 1010, or 99 why? It was not raised preflop, and if one of them has 99 and they stayed till the turn well I will just have to pay one of them off. SO that leave me with KJ for the straight, well thats unlikey because I hold 2 KK. That leaves me with drawing hands and 2 pair possibliites. I though that if one of them had a 10 they would at least try to isolate me on the flop and reraise, which they didn't. SO that left me with hands like 10J, QJ, and and maybe 89. In addition to this maybe Q10 but I will just have to pay this off. Ok, now studying the turn betting. I check, UTG bets, and this if followed by a reraise. So Q on the turn, reraise...I am thinking one of them has a Q. So I three bet. Those are my thoughts.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

I thought about doing that, but I was trying to adopt what sklansky was telling me about how i should be C/R the turn 60% of the time with both my best and not so good hands. I don't know however if UTG would have reraised me. I mean I bet into him again and he is left with top pair and open ended straight draw. I like to think that many people in this situation if they feared I held KK or AQ, or AA, or even AK, would rather just call me down. Thanks for the help.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

by checking the turn, you made the hand that much more difficult to play. I don't hate the 3-bet, but I do dislike the check because you have no reason to believe someone will bet the turn for you. Having this check through costs money.

Also, after the turn 3-bet, I think you have to bet the river. Why were you scared of a 9?

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

YOu know...I don't really know. If one of them did have Q10 i would have won anyway. I guess I should not have expected someone to have a 9. THank you for pointing this out to me.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

I dont think this is a very good spot for a C/R here b/c its not gonna get you heads up with UTG+1 which is what you want with only 1 pair and draws on the board. If you look at your position in the hand its you, utg, and mp1. You check,UTG bets like you want him to but then its on to MP1 and hes not going to fold for 1 bet considering you put him on a draw. In fact I think he raised so you would fold and he cleans up some of his outs. A C/R for value lets say if you had a set or something closer to the nuts would have been more appropriate.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
by checking the turn, you made the hand that much more difficult to play. I don't hate the 3-bet, but I do dislike the check because you have no reason to believe someone will bet the turn for you. Having this check through costs money.

Also, after the turn 3-bet, I think you have to bet the river. Why were you scared of a 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

I guess I can see why I should bet the turn because giving any free cards could really hurt me and I want to get value for my hand. WOuld my play be more appropriate if the turn card came a blank?

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
WOuld my play be more appropriate if the turn card came a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're talked about your opponents being "fishy". To try to put them on ranges of hands is quite difficult. To check to them with a nice hand is a bad idea. Get your money from the fish by betting. Don't get involved in fancy play.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Has anybody read David Sklansky's Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players, because if you did you would know what I am talking about. pg 141-142, Fourth Street Concepts. Says you should frequently be checkraising the river with your good and bad hands alike because the more observant players will be afraid to bet against you on later hands because of fear of being checkraised, and the bad players who aren't paying attention will fall trap and will be frequenlty checkraised when you do have good hands. That way when you are on draws, you may even get free cards and get the best of both worlds. COmments?

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

I'm sure most have read HEPFAP but you're misapplying a concept as well as aplying it to the wrong game.

The board is drawy as hell. There's a really good chance that someone has a gutshot on this board if not an OESD. You really cannot check this turn with an overpair and a gutshot yourself -- having this get checked through would be an absolute disaster for you and you have no reason to believe that one of these guys is going to bet for you. You'll be much better off if you stop looking for places to make a fancy move and play the vast majority of your hands straightforwardly.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Thats nice but you picked a bad spot with a vulnerable hand.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure most have read HEPFAP but you're misapplying a concept as well as aplying it to the wrong game.

The board is drawy as hell. There's a really good chance that someone has a gutshot on this board if not an OESD. You really cannot check this turn with an overpair and a gutshot yourself -- having this get checked through would be an absolute disaster for you and you have no reason to believe that one of these guys is going to bet for you. You'll be much better off if you stop looking for places to make a fancy move and play the vast majority of your hands straightforwardly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect response.

Crispy, have you read Small Stakes Holdem yet? Here's a quote from that book:
Here's a quote from the "Using This Book" section in SSHE pages 11 and 12.

"We anticpate that some people will compare the advice in this book to that given in Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by .. For some situations, we may advise you to do one thing here but another there. This represents neither a retraction of previous advice nor a cntradiction. In Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players, we assume that your opponents play reasonable well. In this book, we assume that many of your opponents play poorly: specifically, that they play too many hands and go too far with them. The different assumptions can cause you to draw two totally different conclusions in situations that seem almost identical! So if you find two pieces of advice that seem to contradict one another, thing about how your opponents' tendencies might cause the correct play to change."

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WOuld my play be more appropriate if the turn card came a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're talked about your opponents being "fishy". To try to put them on ranges of hands is quite difficult. To check to them with a nice hand is a bad idea. Get your money from the fish by betting. Don't get involved in fancy play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tend to disagree with this statement. whether or not to check/raise the turn has to do with the texture of the board as well as your opponents post-flop aggression. If they're fishy/aggro if the turn is a total blank (like a rainbow deuce) I will often check if my opponents are aggressive enough that I feel confident they will bet the turn for me. After all, why get just two BB's from hands that are drawing slim to ours when there's a chance we can extrace two more from them.

I also agree with the quote to vary your play on later streets as it may come in hands when you do have overcards on a flop like this, and it's checked through for you. Varying your play shouldn't bet at teh top of the list in small stakes games, but in obvious situations like this, I will often take a gamble to try and eek outout two BB's from the fish.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I can see why I should bet the turn because giving any free cards could really hurt me and I want to get value for my hand. WOuld my play be more appropriate if the turn card came a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

Misapplication is a very common thing for me as well. I read something, get really excited about the idea, and then go looking for places to make it happen. This often ends up forcing the line into a situation where some fundamental theory for the line is completely shattered.

Re: KK : Bad beat or my failure to protect.
 

Thanks you guys. I see know that I picked a horrible place to apply the concept, however. Looking on the hand, not only was I ahead with my KK, I even had more outs for the J would have given me the nutsraight. But with the board being drawy as hell I should have just bet out. THanks for the help.