Overcard challenge
 

I hearby challenge all small stakes posters - and anybody else reading this really - to provide examples of where raising the flop with just overcards is correct.

Some specific conditions/requirements:

1) You MUST have had the lead (put the last raise in) on the preflop betting round. e.g. if you decide to just call in the BB with AQo and check-raise a ragged flop, that does not qualify.

2) You CANNOT have an OESD (e.g. KQ on a JTx flop) or a four-flush. Backdoor draws are okay, though.

3) You MUST provide player reads.

4) The raise may be either a raise of a bet or a 3-bet of a check-raise (or I suppose 3-bet of a bet and a raise).

5) You MUST describe, in some amount of detail, your intentions for the rest of your hand following your raise.

This is a challenge, not a contest, so there will be no prize.

Fire away.

-Nate

Re: Overcard challenge
 

I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

Here\'s an easy one
 

A maniac limps UTG, I raise with AK, the fairly passive button calls, everyone folds to the maniac who calls.

Flop: J63 rainbow (or anything else ragged)

Maniac bets, I raise.

The raise is to drive out the button. The maniac is capable of having anything, and since my hand has good showdown value I'm probably best. I'm taking this hand to the showdown barring only a couple exceptions (like sudden unconsciousness). If the maniac 3bets, I'm calling down if I don't improve. If the maniac calls, I'm betting the turn and checking behind on the river if I don't improve.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

recent imaginary hand at the My Bath Room 5/10 live:

Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG (generally tight preflop, weak player postflop) open-raises.

folds to hero, hero 3-bets. sb folds, bb(LAG)calls , UTG calls.

flop is 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG folds, hero raises.

Thoughts:

Preflop, UTG probably open raised with big suited broadways down to ATs/KQs or a pp down to 99. I don't see him making this move much with a smaller pp, as he'd most likely limp with those.

I re-raised in order to isolate with my own strong hand, and to try to pick up a draw if the flop didn't hit.

BB probably saw this as a blind steal move from me, and may have called with a wider range of overcards (probably down to 78s) and pocket pairs (I'd guess down to 55)

flop:

BB's bet may be a probe bet with overcards, a PP hoping for a re-raise, or a LAG pure bluff. UTG clearly did not want to get caught between two aggressive players with what he held, and got out.

Based on the wide range of hands that BB may be playing, my Ace may be good about 25% of the time by itself here. The Q kicker may be good another 25% or so of the time. I also have a backdoor flush draw, and a backdoor straight draw. Outside of a queen, the 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would be my ideal turn card here. If I'm behind, I'd count my three aces as mostly good outs, my three queens about the same, and my BD draws at 1.5 outs each. Full value says that's 9 outs, so I'll discount that to 8 to account for a villain AK or AQ (chop).

I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing.

Also, this would be an ok spot to sniff out a set or medium pp on the turn, since a call/checkraise or call/betraise line from BB probably would mean that I was beat and could safely fold.

If I'm re-raised, I'll call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

these look like pretty standard situations so far. Can anyone come up with a correct re-raise from UTG into two people?

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
ecent imaginary hand at the My Bath Room 5/10 live:

Hero is button with AQ

UTG (generally tight preflop, weak player postflop) open-raises.

folds to hero, hero 3-bets. sb folds, bb(LAG)calls , UTG calls.

flop is 3 2 2

BB bets, UTG folds,

[/ QUOTE ]

I got this far and suspect that no one is this weak.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

<font color="blue"> [chris berman voice]I know because I was there![/chris berman voice] </font> [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Honestly, I've seen this before and i used it because it was the most obvious situation I could think of. More marginal would be to 3-bet a raise from UTG with the hopes of folding the SB and the intention of getting out if capped.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

hero is BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG+1 14/7/2 opens, 2 loose-weak-ish MP and CO coldcallers, hero calls.

flop:

6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP bets, CO calls, hero raises...

probably buying myself outs by folding UTG+1's overs. Check-folding anything that isn't a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9, T, Q, K on turn. Leading a K or Q.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

the only overs you want to fold are the A's, other than that you only want him to fold a K or Q if he has an A kicker or has already paired...

Re: Overcard challenge
 

Hand I played yesterday:

Laggy (near maniac) opens on the CO. Hero 3bets A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button, both blinds call. SB is a little loose preflop, but decent postflop (good handreader), BB is weak tight.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to CO who bets, hero raises.

Edit: Intentions

This really depends on how many players stick around on the turn (and who they are). Mostly the intentions here are to raise a better A, or even two overcards to my 9, which should be profitable based on how large the pot is at this point.

I think I am checking through most turns that I don't improve if given the possibility.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

I only like this flop raise if you are planning on taking a free card on the turn.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

Re: Here\'s an easy one
 

Okay, this one I approve of. Clearly it may be worth raising when there's some chance that you have the best hand, especially if you also have the chance to protect that hand.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero is BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG+1 14/7/2 opens, 2 loose-weak-ish MP and CO coldcallers, hero calls.

flop:

6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP bets, CO calls, hero raises...

probably buying myself outs by folding UTG+1's overs. Check-folding anything that isn't a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9, T, Q, K on turn. Leading a K or Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't count because we didn't raise preflop. FWIW, I don't think it's worth investing two bets here once an overcaller is already entangled in the hand.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

You have AK in MP2.

Preflop:
UTG+1 raises, you reraise, MP3 coldcalls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop comes J93 rainbow. (4 players, 8.3 SB)

BB checks, UTG+1 bets, I raise.

I'm not going to provide a ton of imaginary reads here, since I think its standard. Please tell me why I'm wrong.

I don't think I'm ahead. The pot is too big to fold.
I raise because I want something like A3s to fold, to pick up some more outs. Getting 11:2, that's not enough to call w/A3s.

I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

Assuming BB and MP3 fold, on the turn, I bet if checked to, and check through the river if A or K doesn't hit.

Standard?

Re: Overcard challenge
 

I think it is. It always amazes me how easy it is to get a free card.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a free card play that makes our hand look like a big pair. Tight passive players aren't 3 betting me here often.

I don't however have a ton of confidence in betting the turn into 2 players. Clearly I bet if I improve.

The question is what do I do when the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand I played yesterday:

Laggy (near maniac) opens on the CO. Hero 3bets A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button, both blinds call. SB is a little loose preflop, but decent postflop (good handreader), BB is weak tight.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to CO who bets, hero raises.

Edit: Intentions

This really depends on how many players stick around on the turn (and who they are). Mostly the intentions here are to raise a better A, or even two overcards to my 9, which should be profitable based on how large the pot is at this point.

I think I am checking through most turns that I don't improve if given the possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know about this one. The board is dry and the pot is proteted so maniac is more likely than usual to have some kind of hand here. Plus he's also more likely to 3-bet than usual since he's aggressive. I also don't know that our draw is strong enough to be worth paying two bets for, even if we get a free card.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
The question is what do I do when the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely betting that card. We've got both plenty of legitimate equity and plenty of bluffing equity so I'm betting and calling all raises. I'd probably also bet a king that didn't give us the flush draw, FWIW.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

Yup, agreed. Have to given the play thus far.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

how bout this:

folded to hero in sb with AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] BB is a LAG who likes to play big pots.

Hero raises, villain re-raises, hero caps, villain calls.

flop 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hero bets...

Villain could have a wide range of blind re-stealing hands, and I'd put his probability of a pp at about 30-40% of the time. I'm probably in the lead here, and if not I have outs to draw to a better boat than villain would have.

I don't know if three-betting a raise on the flop here would be spewing, but I may have enough equity against this lag for it to be correct.

If villain calls then the turn is tricky because I don't exactly know which cards to fear. I may go into WA/WB mode for the rest of the hand.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want to slow down overcards? Something goofy like KQ is drawing very thin against us and we're happy if it keeps putting money in the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this would be an ok spot to sniff out a set or medium pp on the turn, since a call/checkraise or call/betraise line from BB probably would mean that I was beat and could safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can probably fold the turn if say we're check-raised, but at that point we've already invested 2 BB in the pot postflop and aren't getting to see a showdown (remember we can guarantee ourselves a showdown for at most 2.5 BB).

I prefer just calling this flop and usually just calling down.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

This is just a re-raise for value, plain and simple, not that it doesn't meet the criteria established in my original post.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have either 10 or 7 outs but might fold incorrectly if they think they think they're drawing to a gutshot?

Rob

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have either 10 or 7 outs but might fold incorrectly if they think they think they're drawing to a gutshot?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have either 10 or 7 outs but might fold incorrectly if they think they think they're drawing to a gutshot?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that you don't have the best hand (and in this example, you don't), and that you can't fold a better hand (and in this example, I don't think you can), then no, you shouldn't be raising. I didn't say I agree with the raise (I don't), but I was answering the question. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing because I'm an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP

Re: Overcard challenge
 

I should note that the times I raise with overcards are generally when I feel it's very likely that someone is leading into me with a draw (especially with a draw that they'll have a hard time 3-betting) or when I feel they're sufficiently passive that they'll allow me to see the river for an extra .5SB with my marginal 6-outer.

Rob

Re: Overcard challenge
 

Here's an example. BB is loose and likes to bet out with both draws and weak made hands. He's a bit on the passive side if you fight back. He's capable of folding when it's fairly clear he's beaten.

CO posts a blind. Folded to him, he checks, I raise black KQo. SB folds. BB calls. CO calls. Three to the flop for 6.5SB.

The flop is 257r. BB bets. CO folds. I raise, planning on checking behind on any non-ace, non-king, non-queen, and betting any of those.

Rob

Re: Overcard challenge
 

Villain in this hand has defended his blind quite a few times against me, and has led out on the flop almost every time. I've done a decent amount of folding to these bets.

I open on the button with JTo, villain calls.

Flop is 782r. Villain bets and I raise.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll add a real read. I'm 21%/12%/1.9. Original bettor doesn't value my raise, and bets into me on the flop w/TT.

I want the two others to fold, because I can push original bettor off his hand with a flop raise, and a turn bet.
I don't want to lose when an 8 or Q drops.

Even without the original bettor having TT, I have company when I have just overcards, in a reasonable size pot, and I want people out to pick up outs. I don't want to lose to two pair, or when a weak draw hits.
I have position on original bettor, and can play the hand without too much problem heads up from the turn.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example. BB is loose and likes to bet out with both draws and weak made hands. He's a bit on the passive side if you fight back. He's capable of folding when it's fairly clear he's beaten.

CO posts a blind. Folded to him, he checks, I raise black KQo. SB folds. BB calls. CO calls. Three to the flop for 6.5SB.

The flop is 257r. BB bets. CO folds. I raise, planning on checking behind on any non-ace, non-king, non-queen, and betting any of those.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

We're still walking a pretty thin line here between those times we get our free card, and those times we get 3-bet or stopped-and-goed.

Say for example that 2/3 of the time, we get our free card (savings of 1 SB versus calling twice), but the remaining 1/3 of the time we get 3-bet (loss of 2 SB). Now the free card play just breaks even.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain in this hand has defended his blind quite a few times against me, and has led out on the flop almost every time. I've done a decent amount of folding to these bets.

I open on the button with JTo, villain calls.

Flop is 782r. Villain bets and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the plan for the turn?

Re: Overcard challenge
 

FWIW, Here's Ed Miller's entry: pg 231 SSHE

You have AQ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in BB.
Two players limp, SB calls, you raise, everyone calls.

Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Small blinds is aggressive and thinking player, and bets.
You should raise.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

say you raise two loose-average or aggressive limpers on the button with A8s. two tight-average blinds come along making it 10 SB.

flop is 456 with one of your suit. limper #2 bets into you. by raising, you might be able to fold out better aces that might have limped or called from the blinds, you can fold out another 8, it's possible that the bettor is betting a draw, and if behind, you have the gut shot, backdoor draw, and ace over to improve to. if we get it headsup, then if we've caught him betting a draw, we're best, and if he's betting a made hand it's possible that we have both overs clean as well as the backdoor draw and clean gut shot.

intention is to bet the turn if it gets headsup, take a free card if someone cold calls, and take the free showdown against the limper

good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

Re: Overcard challenge
 

personally I think once you do that you have to fire on the turn and river. I hate these spots. such a small pot and it ends up costing me so much

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nate,

In most instances, the pot isn't as big. With a 3-bet preflop and 4 people to the flop increasing our own equity by only a small percent may make the raise worthwhile. Obviously there is a chance of a 3-bet and other factors at play here both against and to our advantage. I'm not saying I'd raise if I knew it would increase my equity by only 2-3% but when you start looking at the numbers with a 5% (1 in 20) equity increase and a big (likely ~15 BB) final pot when you're seeing the river anyway then it's worth the extra SB. I'm not thinking specifically of T7 or KT but folding out any hand or combination of hands that otherwise would have called will often increase our own equity by more than a SB worth with this sized pot. I think this one is close.

In all fairness though, I think the pot size on the flop he listed was lower than it would be with the given preflop action.

Nice post, btw.

Chief

Re: Overcard challenge
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing because I'm an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it a lot.

I\'ll throw something out here.
 

4 loose limpers to you on the button with AKo, you raise, blinds fold.

Let's say the limper to your immediate right bets:

Let's talk about this, how much does it even matter if he's aggressive or passive? Really, does it even matter that much?

Now...let's say he bet into you and the flop is all cards that are either a T or under (not paired). Does is even matter how draw heavy it is (outside of the ridiculous).

But...I mean, in this situation, what's the vast difference among these flops?

1. T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

2. T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

3. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

4. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I really believe I'm raising any flop like these.