Standard or weak?
 

Villain sat down one hand ago and I've never seen him before.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (8 handed) converter

Button ($200.06)
SB ($410.6)
BB ($407.65)
UTG ($159)
UTG+1 ($142.5)
Hero ($400)
MP2 ($349.54)
CO ($416.1)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $20</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $16, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($82) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $50</font>, Button folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $132

Re: Standard or weak?
 

Well i'm not too sure what a min-raise means in 2-4 online but i'm guessing they aren't typically idiots at that level.

Seems standard.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well i'm not too sure what a min-raise means in 2-4 online but i'm guessing they aren't typically idiots at that level.

Seems standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, I think 2/4 players deserve a bit more credit than at lower stakes, but a preflop minreraise is a donk move at any stakes, isn't it?

Re: Standard or weak?
 

pretty standard. if i'm feeling frisky, i may lead the flop.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

With no read here, and donkish preflop minraise - I think your lay down is the best way to go. Wait for a better spot to put your chips in. Online play minraises typically mean nothing, or a MONSTER.

Here - it looks like a monster.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

are you not leading on that flop because you are assuming player has bigger PP?

This seems pretty weak to me. Can someone please explain more in depth. Are you making that assumption when you call his minraise PF? if so then are you just hoping to flop a set and folding otherwise?
I understand that the minraise is often used to reopen the betting when you have a hand you are willing to go all-in with, but it seems that at this point, without a good read on the player.

Anyone?

Re: Standard or weak?
 

Hrm... this is a good point.

I think leading this flop for about $30 is the best course of action.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

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I think leading this flop for about $30 is the best course of action.

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This will result in villian coming over the top whether he has you beat or not. If you're going to lead the flop, you need to bet 2/3 to pot here. I would need a read that villian could reraise without AA-QQ in order to lead this flop. Without a read I like check/fold. JMO

Re: Standard or weak?
 

My apologies - you're absolutely correct. I didn't realize there were three people in this pot. I lead it for about $45.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

I don't know if I can justify a check/fold here against a minraising Donk that I haven't played any hands with. If I lead the flop for $45, and he still comes over - then I possibly lay it down.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
are you not leading on that flop because you are assuming player has bigger PP?

This seems pretty weak to me. Can someone please explain more in depth. Are you making that assumption when you call his minraise PF? if so then are you just hoping to flop a set and folding otherwise?
I understand that the minraise is often used to reopen the betting when you have a hand you are willing to go all-in with, but it seems that at this point, without a good read on the player.

Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not leading because I don't know anything about villain. I took a conservative route calling the minreraise preflop playing purely for set value. I don't want to bet into the raiser when I don't know yet if he will raise it with unpaired overcards to try and blow me off an obvious overpair of my own.

As a general rule, I put a preflop reraiser (min-reraise or real reraise) to hold something like AA-TT or AK. Sure, some people reraise all the way down to 77 and KQo and others only reraise AA-QQ but I think AA-TT/AK is a good ballpark starting range. Against that range, the only hands that will play a big pot on this flop that I'm beating are AcKc and TT (with TT maybe getting away). AcKc is a slight favorite with two cards to come and would probably play the flop aggressively, causing me to make a FTOP mistake by folding to that aggression (as AA-QQ will probably be equally aggressive). Had I limped the JJ in the first place (I don't always raise) and called the raise, I would lead out at this flop a larger percentage of the time as villain's range of raising hands is much wider than his range of reraising hands.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Well i'm not too sure what a min-raise means in 2-4 online but i'm guessing they aren't typically idiots at that level.

Seems standard.

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Generally, I think 2/4 players deserve a bit more credit than at lower stakes, but a preflop minreraise is a donk move at any stakes, isn't it?

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Yes its a donk move, however I rarely see it used aside from when said donk is holding AA, KK, QQ or AKs.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

If youre only going to raise 3x BB and only play JJ for set value at this limit youre going to get pushed around a lot I think. check/calling or bet/folding here on this flop with all unders has to be be more EV than check/folding

Re: Standard or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If youre only going to raise 3x BB and only play JJ for set value at this limit youre going to get pushed around a lot I think. check/calling or bet/folding here on this flop with all unders has to be be more EV than check/folding

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This may be true. I don't have many hands at this level and haven't done any datamining so I've been tending towards the conservative side against total unknowns.

Re: Standard or weak?
 

Standard. I made the same play last night with QQ. I'm positive that it was the right play.

Edit: Oh, I had a strong read on my villain. Again an unknown, I might call c/c flop, c/f turn or something with QQ since he MIGHT do this with JJ or AK or whatever. People rarely fire two barrels, though without AA/KK.