On Rudeness
 

Virtually every day now, I see a new member here ask a question that is steeped in misunderstanding, ignorance, laziness or newness to the subject matter. And almost every time, some more-veteran 2+2er steps in with a glib comment and tells this person in as rude-yet-brisk terms as possible that they're an idiot.

Why?

I realize I post this probably in vain -- it's an anonymous internet forum, and so rudeness is not only a privilige and right but it's almost demanded, it seems. But 2+2 -- a forum, community and resource which has given me poker advice which has earned me much money and other help with I'd count as priceless -- 2+2 has gotten a bad rap these days. And really, a lot of it is deserved. As a forum, we do treat new members with disdain and rudeness.

Look, I can't ask or tell you to stop -- most wouldn't listen anyways. Why would you? You don't know me, I'm just the guy with the frog avatar. Just a made up name and some picture I thought was cute. I'm not really even a person to most of you.

So look, I realize I can't ask people to be nice; that's pointless. And I realize, yes, it's a harsh cruel world and there's a FAQ and people should develop thick skins and I'm sure whatever you're dishing out is nothing compared to what you got when you first arrived. I know, I believe you.

But it isn't necessary. It really, really isn't. And while it may be fun for you, to see how quickly you can dismiss or belittle someone, that doesn't make it any better in my opinion. Not that, I realize, my opinion means anything to you.

I hate Craigslist -- aside from the useful buy/sell forums, the site is a cesspool of hatred, either from trolls or those who mean it. And I guess I see 2+2 heading that way, to some extent.

If I see a question I believe is so basic, or obvious, or in the FAQ, I ignore it. I try not to respond to trolls. On the days I'm feeling helpful, I will respond or PM; otherwise, I move on.

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular here, and I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I'd just point out that all of us were there once, beginners. And that, at least in my opinion, rudeness is never necessary.

That's it. For anyone who made it this far, thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

The Guy With The Frog Avatar
ElSapo

Re: On Rudeness
 

I agree. Although, it does lend for some good humor at times.

It is really annoying when someone does it in the beginners forum. It should never been done there, no matter what the question is.

Re: On Rudeness
 

i agree with this post 100%. i am wiseass, but i never like to make somebody feel dumb or anything.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Nice Post. I agree with a lot of what you said.

nh

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
Virtually every day now, I see a new member here ask a question that is steeped in misunderstanding, ignorance, laziness or newness to the subject matter. And almost every time, some more-veteran 2+2er steps in with a glib comment and tells this person in as rude-yet-brisk terms as possible that they're an idiot.

Why?

I realize I post this probably in vain -- it's an anonymous internet forum, and so rudeness is not only a privilige and right but it's almost demanded, it seems. But 2+2 -- a forum, community and resource which has given me poker advice which has earned me much money and other help with I'd count as priceless -- 2+2 has gotten a bad rap these days. And really, a lot of it is deserved. As a forum, we do treat new members with disdain and rudeness.

Look, I can't ask or tell you to stop -- most wouldn't listen anyways. Why would you? You don't know me, I'm just the guy with the frog avatar. Just a made up name and some picture I thought was cute. I'm not really even a person to most of you.

So look, I realize I can't ask people to be nice; that's pointless. And I realize, yes, it's a harsh cruel world and there's a FAQ and people should develop thick skins and I'm sure whatever you're dishing out is nothing compared to what you got when you first arrived. I know, I believe you.

But it isn't necessary. It really, really isn't. And while it may be fun for you, to see how quickly you can dismiss or belittle someone, that doesn't make it any better in my opinion. Not that, I realize, my opinion means anything to you.

I hate Craigslist -- aside from the useful buy/sell forums, the site is a cesspool of hatred, either from trolls or those who mean it. And I guess I see 2+2 heading that way, to some extent.

If I see a question I believe is so basic, or obvious, or in the FAQ, I ignore it. I try not to respond to trolls. On the days I'm feeling helpful, I will respond or PM; otherwise, I move on.

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular here, and I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I'd just point out that all of us were there once, beginners. And that, at least in my opinion, rudeness is never necessary.

That's it. For anyone who made it this far, thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

The Guy With The Frog Avatar
ElSapo

[/ QUOTE ]

Word.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Right on ElSapo!

Re: On Rudeness
 

It's true. My first post here met with a rude, belittling response. Basically I had "dumbed down" a reply I posted trying to help a newer member who was asking a basic question, and got jumped on and insulted by another member because I oversimplified.

After seeing the same trend across other topics on 2+2 (new posters getting jumped on), I concluded that this forum has a general attitude that it has enough members already and doesn't encourage new ones. Consequently I rarely post here.

It's a loss that 2+2 tolerates this and has even developed some trademark phrases to belittle people (I'll let others elaborate). I have over 1,000 posts on another poker forum, where I've taken time to contribute, but was soured immediately on the response I got here.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Thanks for posting this. Hopefully it will have some effect.

-Craig

Re: On Rudeness
 

You know, rudeness has and always will be a part of any internet message board. Theres no way to stop it.

Best to just see it for what it really is. It's not a big deal at all once you accept it.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Post your [censored] elsewhere. You suck at poker!


Bad joke [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

Re: On Rudeness
 

I agree 100%.

However, you can't really expect many zoo regulars to respond to "how do I open multiple party accounts" threads in a particularly cheerful way after seeing 3 of them a day. I also think that frequently, it's not a matter of being a jerk, but just that a lot regulars don't feel like spending time and formulating a response that is particularly elegant since they've already said it multiple times.

For example, I frequent the micro/SS limit and HUSH forums. A lot of times I'm pretty blunt with my responses "Flop raise sucks" and might follow with a "you probably shouldn't be playing X/Y limit (if you are making this mistake)". I'm not trying to be an ass -- it's just that I've said it so many times I don't really feel I need to spend extra time to write it in a way that "sounds better". They want advice, and I give it to them short and sweet -- I don't think they should take offense.

Re: On Rudeness
 

I totally agree. These days, it seems like 2+2 is having an internal battle of who can deliver the worst/most creative insults. I have seen many polite posts being instantly attacked with aggression and sarcasm. Almost as if some posters are trying to boost their egos by finding excuses to belittle people.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Just summarised 2+2 to a mate the other day, good for looking for the odd bonus code, if you can be bothered trawling through the 1000s of posts of people bragging or bickering like kids.

The regular posters (generalising) have intelectual delusions of grandier, your forum is useful to a point, but really your not special, just annoying mostly.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Great post ELSAPO. Seriously, I agree 100% with what you are saying, after all I got Crap post of the day once [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I try to respect everyone and be polite at all times, but thats easier said then done sometimes!

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]

The regular posters (generalising) have intelectual delusions of grandier, your forum is useful to a point, but really your not special, just annoying mostly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the forums are still pretty decent, generally the ones with less traffic. I quickly learned not to bother with micros and small stakes. Every once in a while I make the mistake of going back, and I'm reminded why.

There is a good deal of decent poker discussion here if you know where to look.

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just summarised 2+2 to a mate the other day, good for looking for the odd bonus code, if you can be bothered trawling through the 1000s of posts of people bragging or bickering like kids.

The regular posters (generalising) have intelectual delusions of grandier, your forum is useful to a point, but really your not special, just annoying mostly.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/sl...-stfu_noob.JPG
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: On Rudeness
 

Though I basically agree with the original poster, let's not forget this part of the forum has a reputation to live up to. This place is not called the Zoo for nothing. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: On Rudeness
 

Agreed, this could be posted in OOT... actually in almost every forum.

Re: On Rudeness
 

this could be applicably cross-posted in probably every forum on here.

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, rudeness has and always will be a part of any internet message board. Theres no way to stop it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have read many message boards about other topics. Some are much more polite than 2+2. Some are much less polite. It wouldn't break a law of physics for people to be more polite here.

Moron. <font color="white">That was a joke.</font>

[ QUOTE ]

Best to just see it for what it really is. It's not a big deal at all once you accept it.

[/ QUOTE ]
That you have accepted the level of rudeness does not mean all potentially worthwhile contributors have also accepted it. The first hand I posted on 2+2 (in microlimits) received a wide range of responses, including one over-the-top "FOAD" by someone who misread my post. That didn't stop me, but it would drive away other people. I think periodic reminders not to drive people away for no reason are helpful.

Re: On Rudeness
 

Oh, you came here for an argument? Sorry, this is Abuse; Arguments is next door, in Room 12A.

(Stupid git!)

-Mike

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
Virtually every day now, I see a new member here ask a question that is steeped in misunderstanding, ignorance, laziness or newness to the subject matter. And almost every time, some more-veteran 2+2er steps in with a glib comment and tells this person in as rude-yet-brisk terms as possible that they're an idiot.

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the poster asking the questions shows laziness by asking a question that is easily answered by using the search function.

Some questions are ok if they pop up again and again. ("how do I play JJ in EP") since it hard to search for a good answer for them. But some questions are so easy to find answers for that it is rude not use the search function before asking ("how do I change my screen name at Eurobet"). Some are downright stupid to ask about (questions about rakeback in the zoo when the sticky FAQ explicitly asks you not to ask about it).

That said, there is no reason to be overly rude of course.

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, rudeness has and always will be a part of any internet message board. Theres no way to stop it.

Best to just see it for what it really is. It's not a big deal at all once you accept it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other message boards will suspend your account for X number of days if you get particularly flagrant. I don't completely agree with this, but 2+2 could use a little more moderation in this area.

Re: On Rudeness
 

NH

Re: On Rudeness
 

Agreed with MrZ.
Temporary suspensions wouldn't be a half-bad idea for those who are close to the line.
Right now it seems we either have post-deletion or account-banning. Not much in-between.


Anyway, of course I agree with what ElSapo has to say also.
I have found myself giving more curt 1-line responses of late (much to the joy of many a 2+2'er who is tired of reading through all my rambling-crap).

Sometimes I'm polite to the newbies...heck, I think I was one of the only one's who slowed-down and took the time to explain bonus-frequency on empire to WackoJacko.
I have also actually been polite to some spammers by just explaining that 'spamming isn't allowed here for such-and-such reason' operating on the assumption that they might not have been aware that what they were doing were against the forum rules (many many people don't bother reading the FAQ's I imagine).
But I've also been kinda rude at times to some of the more annoying newbie questions and I think ElSapo's post is a good reminded that we were all beginners once.


I remember asking all about screen-resolution (what does 1600x1200 mean??) and how to set up 2 monitors, etc etc. A lot of it is common-knowledge to me now...but back in the day it was as confusing as whether to fold my 66 on board of 3467 for 2 bets.
(that was the first hand I posted in SS forum...I got called a "damn retard" for making such a weak-tight fold with so many outs even though the pot was small...after I folded, the river brought a 6 and I 'would have' made quads).

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, rudeness has and always will be a part of any internet message board. Theres no way to stop it.

Best to just see it for what it really is. It's not a big deal at all once you accept it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...lemme see here...

"You know, racism has and always will be a part of America. There's no way to stop it.

Best to just see it for what it really is. It's not a big deal at all once you accept it."

Sounds funny, don't it?

(Was that too rude?)

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, you can't really expect many zoo regulars to respond to "how do I open multiple party accounts" threads in a particularly cheerful way after seeing 3 of them a day. I also think that frequently, it's not a matter of being a jerk, but just that a lot regulars don't feel like spending time and formulating a response that is particularly elegant since they've already said it multiple times.

For example, I frequent the micro/SS limit and HUSH forums. A lot of times I'm pretty blunt with my responses "Flop raise sucks" and might follow with a "you probably shouldn't be playing X/Y limit (if you are making this mistake)". I'm not trying to be an ass -- it's just that I've said it so many times I don't really feel I need to spend extra time to write it in a way that "sounds better". They want advice, and I give it to them short and sweet -- I don't think they should take offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

So don't respond if you don't feel like spending time and formulating a response that is particularly elegant. Simple...

Re: On Rudeness
 

Random thoughts:

* The first response to a newbie post often sets the tone of the whole thread. A polite, helpful reply keeps the jerks at bay, while a rude response results in piling on.

* We need some level of civility to have meaningful discussion.

* The additional moderators are doing a good job controlling the nastier stuff, though I wouldn't mind seeing them get a little more aggressive.

* In &gt;1100 posts, I don't recall anyone being particularly rude to me, even though I may have deserved it a time or two. (Go ahead, make my day! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]

* In &gt;1100 posts, I don't recall anyone being particularly rude to me, even though I may have deserved it a time or two. (Go ahead, make my day! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

[/ QUOTE ]

You sir, have poopy pants!

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that frequently, it's not a matter of being a jerk, but just that a lot regulars don't feel like spending time and formulating a response that is particularly elegant since they've already said it multiple times.

[/ QUOTE ]


If responding to every duplicate post that pisses you off, and doing so insultingly without provocation just because you don't like the topic, isn't the definition of being a jerk--then I need to get a new dictionary.

If you don't like the stupid topic, stay away from the stupid thread. Giving people the answer to what they're asking is just as easy as telling them this has already been asked fifteen times.

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't like the stupid topic, stay away from the stupid thread. Giving people the answer to what they're asking is just as easy as telling them this has already been asked fifteen times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which of course only encourages them to not search for the answer or even look if there is a topic on the first page of the forum that asks the same questions. This leads to the forum being cluttered in threads that aren't needed, which makes it a worse forum.

Re: On Rudeness
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you don't like the stupid topic, stay away from the stupid thread. Giving people the answer to what they're asking is just as easy as telling them this has already been asked fifteen times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which of course only encourages them to not search for the answer or even look if there is a topic on the first page of the forum that asks the same questions. This leads to the forum being cluttered in threads that aren't needed, which makes it a worse forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: First time someone does it, give them the answer, but gently point out that it could have been found via search and explain how to do it (or point out the thread on the same topic that was on the first page, if that was the case). Next time, jump on them with both feet and spit on them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Bear in mind that the search function isn't exactly intuitive; sure, it's fine if you're used to it, but newbies could easily find it a bit daunting. Everybody's a green newbie at some point in their lives; it's not that hard to give them a break until they've had a chance to learn the ropes.

-Mike

Re: On Rudeness
 

Cold-hearted flaming serves as a good warning for other newbies to lurk before they post. I lurked for several months before I made post #1. You learn a lot about posting ettiquette.

You could make the argument that if you flame someone too hard, they may never post again. Well, if they are posting the flame-worthy crap that they usually do, who wants them around anyway?

Re: On Rudeness
 

nh Mike

When I first came to this site, I had never been on an internet forum in my life, so the many extremely rude responses I received were really annoying. I think many people come to this forum, know a bit about poker; however, maybe they don't use the term "Hero, Villian" and UTG+2, but that doesn't mean they can't play cards. There is a lot of lingo about these forums. My dad has played cards in Vegas and cardrooms his entire life and has not heard of half of the terms I've learned in this forum.

Just be nice...it's pretty easy if you try.

Re: On Rudeness
 

STFU n00b

No seriously. I think a certain ammount of abrasiveness and honesty is a good thing. I do think some people cross a line though, and that line is usually in the form of ad hominem attacks. But when someone asks "was I wrong to call an all in bet with my AA?" they deserve a little rhetorical smacking around.

Newer guys, esp those who ask really dumb questions or make stupid comments, should be prepared for ribbing. If they can last it out, then they will likely stick around and contribute to the forum.

I like the tough love culture of 2p2. People should also try to be clever (and funny) in the process. How about a rule: if you want to make an insult or dispence tough love, them make it clever and funny. If you cant to do that don't bother responding.

Re: On Rudeness
 

I never felt uninvited when I first came here. I lurked, I found the link to the hand converter, and I posted in the right forum.

I don't see why anyone else would have trouble doing the same.