Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

UTG is somewhat loose-aggressive, MP2 is LAGgy, and the SB is a calling station. The villain on the button is pretty much a retard who is 75/10 preflop. His post-flop AG numbers are worthless, as I've seen him make idiotic, passive plays like calling with AJo after one limper and then check-calling down TP in a multipot when nobody had raised preflop. Yet I've also seen him make idiotic, aggressive floater moves, such as raising a rag flop with zilch against a preflop raiser, or raising a black T99 flop with red Q8 when second to act in a six way pot.

Preflop: chesspain is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, chesspain checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, chesspain checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, chesspain calls, UTG folds, MP2 folds.

The majority of time I will bet the flop with trips, but given the fairly safe nature of the board and the aggressive tendencies of the others, I wanted to check and see what would develop.

Turn: (3.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain caps</font>, Button calls.

River: (11.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, chesspain calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

No paired board that gives you trips is an entirely safe board. It was an easy bet on the flop. If he raises, you have information.

I don't have much useful advice except this: 2-way action, right? Not a lot to win, lots of risk, and in terms of the cost of bets, you could be risking those bets in a MUCH larger pot. When I'm confused about aggression, I usually slow down if it's a player I've got confusing reads on.

I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

I would rather you just bet the flop. One problem with slowplaying is that you can get caught in your own trap because you interpret your opponents strength to your slowplay. If you have bet out and it had been capped on the flop and turn, you have a somewhat easier job determining your river play. Given the way you played it on the flop, I'd likely 3-bet the river as you did, but when he caps, I wouldn't like it at all.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I don't have much useful advice except this: 2-way action, right? Not a lot to win, lots of risk, and in terms of the cost of bets, you could be risking those bets in a MUCH larger pot. When I'm confused about aggression, I usually slow down if it's a player I've got confusing reads on.

I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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If you are suggesting that you would have checkcalled the turn and then checkcalled the river, then you are playing way too scared to play effectively.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

There's no way I'm 3-betting that river. Even though villain is an idiot, I would assume that even HE knows he won't win this pot on a bluff or with a 6 or something absurd by the time we get to the river.

There are too many hands that beat you, and they will all cap against you. Risking 2 to make 1 more requires you to be good like 55-60% of the time. Unless you have a spectacular read on this guy, I can't imagine you're good that often.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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Not good at all. If you're risk-averse, you shouldn't play poker. You need to take risks in poker a lot of them.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

I'm check-calling the river.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

Tough with mixed reads on villian. I like the turn, I don't think you can put him on anything that has you beat at that point. I would have just called his raise on the river without any read on him that he would bluff-raise after the turn action. Then again, he's an idiot.

Say you bet the flop. How would you change your play on the turn and river if he just called you? What if he raised? With a wild player like that do you think either would give you more info than what you had by just check/calling the flop?

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would rather you just bet the flop. One problem with slowplaying is that you can get caught in your own trap because you interpret your opponents strength to your slowplay. If you have bet out and it had been capped on the flop and turn, you have a somewhat easier job determining your river play.

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Although a good argument can always be made for betting the flop with trips, it usually isn't so that one can gather reliable information--which is especially true against this lineup.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I'm check-calling the river.

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If this is true then I assume also that you wouldn't have capped the turn.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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Not good at all. If you're risk-averse, you shouldn't play poker. You need to take risks in poker a lot of them.

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I'm not saying I don't like taking risks at all, I'm saying I'm choosier than most in deciding when to take them.

A small heads-up pot with this board and a ton of aggression against me rules out aggression on my part. Check/call or fold.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I'm check-calling the river.

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If this is true then I assume also that you wouldn't have capped the turn.

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Yup.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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Not good at all. If you're risk-averse, you shouldn't play poker. You need to take risks in poker a lot of them.

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I'm not saying I don't like taking risks at all, I'm saying I'm choosier than most in deciding when to take them.

A small heads-up pot with this board and a ton of aggression against me rules out aggression on my part. Check/call or fold.

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I think I'm going to blind myself.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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Not good at all. If you're risk-averse, you shouldn't play poker. You need to take risks in poker a lot of them.

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I'm not saying I don't like taking risks at all, I'm saying I'm choosier than most in deciding when to take them.

A small heads-up pot with this board and a ton of aggression against me rules out aggression on my part. Check/call or fold.

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You said you would check/call all the way. That's not slowing down on the river, that's being passive and giving up bets when you are a huge favorite after the flop. If you mean ch/call the river, that is probably reasonable (although I would still bet against an idiot).

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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Not good at all. If you're risk-averse, you shouldn't play poker. You need to take risks in poker a lot of them.

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I'm not saying I don't like taking risks at all, I'm saying I'm choosier than most in deciding when to take them.

A small heads-up pot with this board and a ton of aggression against me rules out aggression on my part. Check/call or fold.

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You said you would check/call all the way. That's not slowing down on the river, that's being passive and giving up bets when you are a huge favorite after the flop. If you mean ch/call the river, that is probably reasonable (although I would still bet against an idiot).

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He wants to fold too. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I'm check-calling the river.

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If this is true then I assume also that you wouldn't have capped the turn.

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Yup.

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That seems like shutting down too soon with a great hand against a retard.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I would have slowed way down and check/called all the way. But then, I'm risk-averse.

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Not good at all. If you're risk-averse, you shouldn't play poker. You need to take risks in poker a lot of them.

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I'm not saying I don't like taking risks at all, I'm saying I'm choosier than most in deciding when to take them.

A small heads-up pot with this board and a ton of aggression against me rules out aggression on my part. Check/call or fold.

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I think I'm going to blind myself.

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Eh, it depends on the read. Chip stack. Am I close to all-in? Do it, of course. Am I way up for the night? Do it. Did I just sit down? Just wait. You don't have to win every hand, and getting into a pissing contest with an idiot on this board with a weak kicker is just looking for trouble.

Clearly, we play differently. I prefer to make moves when I am likely to be ahead.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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Eh, it depends on the read. Chip stack. Am I close to all-in?

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Buddy this is limit. If you're about to go all in, you should have brought more money to the table. Chip stacks are irrelevant in limit unless someone’s almost out, and that should never ever be you.

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Am I way up for the night? Do it.

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That is a very bad reason to do anything in poker.

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Did I just sit down? Just wait. You don't have to win every hand, and getting into a pissing contest with an idiot on this board with a weak kicker is just looking for trouble.

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You're looking to get maximum value out of every hand.

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Clearly, we play differently.

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Check calling the turn after leading and getting raised on the flop is not "different" it's bad. Considering folding at any point in this hand is terrible.

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I prefer to make moves when I am likely to be ahead.

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Apparently not.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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Check calling the turn after leading and getting raised on the flop is not "different" it's bad. Considering folding at any point in this hand is terrible.


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Actually, the button didn't raise the flop--he simply bet in last position.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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Check calling the turn after leading and getting raised on the flop is not "different" it's bad. Considering folding at any point in this hand is terrible.


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Actually, the button didn't raise the flop--he simply bet in last position.

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It was an easy bet on the flop. If he raises, you have information.

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I was refering to his plan not the hand.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I'm check-calling the river.

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If this is true then I assume also that you wouldn't have capped the turn.

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Yup.

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That seems like shutting down too soon with a great hand against a retard.

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The lack of information you get out of your flop check is one of the consequences of checking the flop. In general, when someone 3-bets the turn, they've got a good hand. Especially when they 3-bet a turn checkraise. I completely disagree with your flop and turn play because I think they're absolutely transparent, but whatever.

I know that you say you've seen him make some "idiotic floater" moves, but I fail to see how either of those situations detract from his possible range of hands here. If you tell me that he'd raise A4o here or that he was generally overaggressive, that's going to change my read and play accordingly. But you didn't. You mentioned two situations, one which wasn't a great raise but was far from terrible, and another which might be good but might be terrible, depending on contexts, and neither of those seem to have much applicability here.

You've shown extreme strength here and he's responded with more strength. If I had a read that he'd play lots of hands this way on the turn, then yeah, I'd cap the turn and lead the river (though I think 3-betting the river is asinine). But you don't provide a read with the equivalent of that.

Rob

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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The lack of information you get out of your flop check is one of the consequences of checking the flop.

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I'm amazed that you think that a flop raise (or his response to my possible three-bet) would give me any reliable information here.


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In general, when someone 3-bets the turn, they've got a good hand. Especially when they 3-bet a turn checkraise.

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I assume he has a good hand...but so do I. I'm not quite ready to give him credit for a hand better than an ace or a worse nine as soon as he three-bets the turn.


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I completely disagree with your flop and turn play because I think they're absolutely transparent, but whatever.

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But I wasn't playing against you. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]


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I know that you say you've seen him make some "idiotic floater" moves, but I fail to see how either of those situations detract from his possible range of hands here. If you tell me that he'd raise A4o here or that he was generally overaggressive, that's going to change my read and play accordingly. But you didn't. You mentioned two situations, one which wasn't a great raise but was far from terrible, and another which might be good but might be terrible, depending on contexts, and neither of those seem to have much applicability here.

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It's true that I hadn't seen him go crazy previously on the turn/river. What I have seen is that he has made a number of seemingly illogical decisions. In addition, you seem to be forgetting that there are a number of hands that he could have here which he thinks are great but are second best--such as a weaker nine or an overplayed ace. In other words, he doesn't have to be on a bluff to be showing such aggression on the turn.


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I think 3-betting the river is asinine

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Fair enough.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I assume he has a good hand...but so do I.


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No way, man. How many times have you played A9? even K9 from late position? Even if you're against another 9, dude. Lousy kicker. Definatly not warranting ultra-aggressive play.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I'm amazed that you think that a flop raise (or his response to my possible three-bet) would give me any reliable information here.

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If you bet the flop and he raises, then you checkraise the turn and he 3-bets, do you think he's got an "overplayed Ace" as often as when you check-call the flop, then check-raise the turn and he 3-bets?

I lead this flop often but that's because I seem to get paid off well when I do -- the information is really only a small ancillary benefit.

On the turn, you need to have the best hand 2/3 of the time for a cap-lead combo to be great. Other lines that you might want to consider include calling and betting the river regardless, since it makes it a lot harder for him to fold a worse hand.

Yeah, you've got a good hand here. But it's not a great hand. You're behind AA (3), K9 (4), 96 (3), A9 (4), and 66 (3), and are ahead of 92 (4), 93 (4), 94 (4), 95 (4), 97 (4), 98 (4), T9 (4), and J9 (4). That's behind 17 and ahead of 32, but some of those need to be discounted pretty significantly as he probably doesn't have 92o, 93o, or 94o. 95o and up become playable in the range of someone playing ~80% of their hands.

If you really think there's a significant chance he 3-bets you on the turn with a hand that doesn't include a 9 and he'll never fold a hand like an overplayed Ace, then I don't mind the cap-lead, but if he'll slow down with some of these hands or is capable of folding a worse hand, then I like considering that you may have to slow down yourself.

My math could be off as I'm getting ready for bed. It's close either way, but I generally slow down sooner against this sort of player.

Rob

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I assume he has a good hand...but so do I.


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No way, man. How many times have you played A9? even K9 from late position? Even if you're against another 9, dude. Lousy kicker. Definatly not warranting ultra-aggressive play.

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1. Remember that opponent plays 75% of his hands preflop.
2. A queen is very rarely a lousy kicker.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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I assume he has a good hand...but so do I.


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No way, man. How many times have you played A9? even K9 from late position?

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The question is how many times does Button play 9T-92 from the Button. Given his stats I'd say every time.

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Even if you're against another 9, dude. Lousy kicker. Definatly not warranting ultra-aggressive play.

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Q is not a lousy kicker.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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You're looking to get maximum value out of every hand.

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That doesn't mean pissing away your chips on mediocre hands when the payoff is tiny (the pot is small).

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I prefer to make moves when I am likely to be ahead.


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Apparently not.


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Seriously, man, I don't know what your problem is. Think about the range of hands that beat him. 66, AA, JJ, 69, A9, K9, J9, and any two clubs. He's at BEST 8th place. If making a move seems like a good play to you, feel free to sit with me anytime.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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1. Remember that opponent plays 75% of his hands preflop.


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That said, think of the number of hands that beat him (taken from my earlier post): 66, AA, JJ, 69, A9, K9, J9, AND any two clubs. He's at BEST 8th place if his opponant has a legitimate hand, and he's sure betting like he does. The size of the pot vs. holding the "8th nuts" just doesn't make this an appealing hand to play to me.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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On the turn, you need to have the best hand 2/3 of the time for a cap-lead combo to be great. Other lines that you might want to consider include calling and betting the river regardless, since it makes it a lot harder for him to fold a worse hand.

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Interesting.


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Yeah, you've got a good hand here. But it's not a great hand. You're behind AA (3), K9 (4), 96 (3), A9 (4), and 66 (3), and are ahead of 92 (4), 93 (4), 94 (4), 95 (4), 97 (4), 98 (4), T9 (4), and J9 (4). That's behind 17 and ahead of 32, but some of those need to be discounted pretty significantly as he probably doesn't have 92o, 93o, or 94o. 95o and up become playable in the range of someone playing ~80% of their hands.

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I think a hand like A6o (15 hands) has to be considered, given the real possibility that he might misread the strength of his counterfeited two-pair. But I guess we can disagree on whether this type of player could be holding a hand like AQ/AJ/AT--which would certainly increase the number of hands against which I'm ahead.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I still tend to think that capping the turn and betting the river is the right way to go, although I can see how just calling the river raise would be prudent.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

Villain sounds erratic, and there's a good chance he's not particularly observant.

A couple of thoughts, though:

(1) Anyone who plays Party 3/6 and pays much attention at all should be aware of the check-call flop, checkraise turn line with flopped trips. I know you don't do it all that often, but that doesn't mean Villain doesn't see it all the time.

(2) It seems like when someone is willing to put in this many raises against me heads-up postflop, he usually has something very good.

I often have trouble figuring out when to slow down with a strong hand -- especially against the kind of player your opponent is. But I don't think you should have put quite as many postflop bets in as you did.

That said, if you won the hand (maybe because Villain was going nuts postflop with KK or 95s or something), well, then you went with your instincts based on your read and were right this time. I do think that sometimes a play that can be correct at the table can look wrong in a posted hand, because sometimes a read can contain subtleties that are hard to describe in a post.

Edit: For instance, if Villain seems to take it personally and gets carried away when someone checkraises him, of if he tends to either play his hands passively or continue raising indefinitely, with some disregard for his hand's actual strength, then those would be reasons to keep playing back at him with a hand as strong as trips.

Probably he can usually bully someone into just calling him down eventually, if he raises persisently enough, since he won't usually be up against the nuts. So if he's a player who lets his ego get involved once he shows strength in a hand, then your river 3-bet starts to seem less reckless to me.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

i bet/call the river.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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You're looking to get maximum value out of every hand.

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That doesn't mean pissing away your chips on mediocre hands when the payoff is tiny (the pot is small).

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I prefer to make moves when I am likely to be ahead.


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Apparently not.


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Seriously, man, I don't know what your problem is. Think about the range of hands that beat him. 66, AA, JJ, 69, A9, K9, J9, and any two clubs. He's at BEST 8th place. If making a move seems like a good play to you, feel free to sit with me anytime.

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First, we are talking about the turn so any two clubs are out. He would have raised with JJ A9s Those are out. His range therefore is. K9s-92s, A9o-92o, 66

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,068 games 0.010 secs 206,800 games/sec

Board: 9h 9c 6s Ac
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 61.8714 % 50.00% 11.87% { Qs9d }
Hand 2: 38.1286 % 26.26% 11.87% { 66, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T9s, 92s+, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 92o+ }

Are equity is huge! This = put bets in on the turn.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

My initial reaction is that once he puts in the fourth bet on the river you're most likely toast unless he's a total goofball.


i like it all except I would bet the river and call his raise.

Results for the afternoon crowd...
 

Button showed A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (!?!?), and MHING.

Re: Results for the afternoon crowd...
 

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Button showed A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (!?!?), and MHING.

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Guess I should include AA in his range next time. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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The question is how many times does Button play 9T-92 from the Button. Given his stats I'd say every time.

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That's a serious overestimation. I'd say he plays 95o+ frequently, but 92o, 93o, and 94o very rarely. 92s, 93s, and 94s are all possible, but there are only one combination of each of these.

Rob

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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The question is how many times does Button play 9T-92 from the Button. Given his stats I'd say every time.

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That's a serious overestimation. I'd say he plays 95o+ frequently, but 92o, 93o, and 94o very rarely. 92s, 93s, and 94s are all possible, but there are only one combination of each of these.

Rob

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I don't know. It isn't like he's saying "I'm only going to play the top 75% of hands." I think it's quite possible that he plays every hand on the button. Or He could be playing every hand in an unraised pot.

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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The question is how many times does Button play 9T-92 from the Button. Given his stats I'd say every time.

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That's a serious overestimation. I'd say he plays 95o+ frequently, but 92o, 93o, and 94o very rarely. 92s, 93s, and 94s are all possible, but there are only one combination of each of these.

Rob

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I don't know. It isn't like he's saying "I'm only going to play the top 75% of hands." I think it's quite possible that he plays every hand on the button. Or He could be playing every hand in an unraised pot.

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People with ~75% VPIPs aren't thinking positionally very often. Generally the reason they have such a high VPIP is that they never fold their SB or BB, regardless of the number of bets he's playing, and that they play a fairly wide range of hands -- but not every hand. I can't guarantee you that he doesn't have 94o, 93o, 92o very often here, but I'd be willing to bet on it. If I'm guessing that he's got somewhere around the top 80% of his hands (that's an overestimate, AFAIC), 95o is his cutoff. But honestly I don't think that's even his cutoff. Generally a player like this is "looking to make straights or flushes" and is playing hands like 92s, 95o+ (generally 96o but I think 95o is a fair cutoff).

You're going to see 92o, 93o, 94o very very very rarely here. Yes, we have a tendency to open up in late position in limped pots. But most fishy players aren't thinking that way -- they aren't thinking about position and whether or not that improves their holding -- they're just thinking about what sort of hands their cards can make. If he's a 75% VPIP'er, he's got some hand selection, and I'd be willing to make the bet that 94o- don't make the cut, unless he's "defending" his blinds.

Rob

Re: Pedal to the metal with trips...
 

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The question is how many times does Button play 9T-92 from the Button. Given his stats I'd say every time.

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That's a serious overestimation. I'd say he plays 95o+ frequently, but 92o, 93o, and 94o very rarely. 92s, 93s, and 94s are all possible, but there are only one combination of each of these.

Rob

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I don't know. It isn't like he's saying "I'm only going to play the top 75% of hands." I think it's quite possible that he plays every hand on the button. Or He could be playing every hand in an unraised pot.

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People with ~75% VPIPs aren't thinking positionally very often. Generally the reason they have such a high VPIP is that they never fold their SB or BB, regardless of the number of bets he's playing, and that they play a fairly wide range of hands -- but not every hand. I can't guarantee you that he doesn't have 94o, 93o, 92o very often here, but I'd be willing to bet on it. If I'm guessing that he's got somewhere around the top 80% of his hands (that's an overestimate, AFAIC), 95o is his cutoff. But honestly I don't think that's even his cutoff. Generally a player like this is "looking to make straights or flushes" and is playing hands like 92s, 95o+ (generally 96o but I think 95o is a fair cutoff).

You're going to see 92o, 93o, 94o very very very rarely here. Yes, we have a tendency to open up in late position in limped pots. But most fishy players aren't thinking that way -- they aren't thinking about position and whether or not that improves their holding -- they're just thinking about what sort of hands their cards can make. If he's a 75% VPIP'er, he's got some hand selection, and I'd be willing to make the bet that 94o- don't make the cut, unless he's "defending" his blinds.

Rob

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I guess I'm going to have to yield to experience here. How do you manage to get in the minds of these loose players? Is it just that you have seen them play for a long time.