weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Villain is 45/18 LAG. Min-raises a lot of trash.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP ($64.05)</font>
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($59.1)</font>
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.5</font>, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>

Who hates it already? What's my plan for the hand?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Having come that far, I'm either doubling up or going broke.

Did you think you had good steal equity preflop? Otherwise i don't like it...

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

So if he raises, you're calling? What if the other guy calls the raise? And yes, I thought I'd take it down about 70% of the time preflop.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

He's LAG, you have 1/3 of your stack in the pot, and you have TPTK...? I'm assuming you're ahead of the LAG often enough to shove it in. Unless he's not so LAG.

The other guy can't raise.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

if he raises, I like push.

it'll look to a bad lag like you have AK trying to play back at him.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he raises, I like push.

it'll look to a bad lag like you have AK trying to play back at him.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you think he's going to call me with a worse hand? What hand range do you put him on?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

flush draw, 78, 88, 77, 76, 9 with worst kicker, maybe 2 overs.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

You don't even have a set or overpair in his hand range?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't even have a set or overpair in his hand range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. QQ-99 are all pretty reasonable holdings to expect. Even LAGs get hands. Action vs. a raise would be a tougher decision than you make out; highly read-dependent...

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

sorry, I just listed hands you beat.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Action vs. a raise would be a tougher decision than you make out; highly read-dependent...

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. But I think I would have to fold to a raise. I just don't see him raising here without an overpair. But I didn't have to make that decision.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP ($64.05)</font>
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($59.1)</font>
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.5</font>, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP calls $14, Button folds.

Turn: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero..?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Yikes. Bet 3/4 pot or so, I guess. The problem is that he's very likely to represent a K whether he's got one or not. I'll be god-damned if I know what to do if you're raised or called again. You've already represented so much strength! Dealing with good LAGs is the weakest part of my game; I'll be paying close attention to this thread...

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even LAGs get hands. Action vs. a raise would be a tougher decision than you make out; highly read-dependent...


[/ QUOTE ]

Just a comment... its true that even LAGS get hands, but a lot of LAGS bet and/or raise whether they have a hand or not.

If you give a LAG credit for a hand everytime they playback at someone, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

I had a good day today at Stars $100NL. Most of my winning hands came from LAGS making moves on me.

Regarding this hand, I don't know enough about how this guy's playing to say how to play it, but if you're going to reraise a LAG with A9 and you hit top pair... you have to play it aggressively.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Oh, I totally agree. And Hero did just that, potting the flop. But Villain's still not out, there's a fairly scary overcard on the turn, and Villian is ignoring Hero's display of strength. Bet the turn strongly, but how do you play it if you get raised? Flat called with a blank river?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

When I first posted, I didn't see where he posted the turn.

I think its just as much "LAG' dependent as it is "card dependent."

Clearly if he checks here, the LAG will bet. (for some reason when I read the hand the first time, I thought hero was on the Button)

I don't like it so much now that realize hero didn't have position.

I'd like to know a lot more about the LAG... is he a calling station where he'll call any flop bet with overcards? I play against a lot who almost always call a flop bet regardless if they hit or not. (the good ones do it because they know if they bluff with position they'll steal a lot of pots)

if he's a LAG that calls flop bets unimproved, I think hero has no choice but to continue betting. Sometimes the it takes two shots to get the lag to fold.

Though this situation is why when I playback at a LAG, I do it in late position preferable to the left of the LAG.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Very good points. I'd love to hear more about the benefits of betting over c/c on the turn. I'll post the rest of the hand tomorrow.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Against more passive players, I might check the turn.

Against a LAG, if you check a hand to him you have to give up the hand because he will bet it if you don't. he will put you to the test.

But all LAGS aren't stupid. If you show strength twice in a row, they might laydown. If YOU haven't been LAGGY, the LAG is likly to give you credit for a real hand since you did reraise him out of position.

For the most part, it simply comes down to, if you check you give him control and he will take it. (and he'll probably bet more money then you want to call to see if he's bluffing.) Unless he has a king, that king is as scary to him as it is to you.

You may lose money this way on this hand, but it is also a good setup for later hands. Show the LAG that you can play his game too. And it will encourage him to call you later when you have a monster.

another note: this works better if you don't do it all the time. If the LAG thinks you're a rock, you can get him to fold a lot more. If you're playing back at him all the time, then don't do it out of position because you'll put yourself in the positio where you have to keep betting into him.

I can tell its late because I'm rambling more then usual and I don't know that I'm saying much. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

OK, here's what I want to know. Do people think that I am behind but I should bet the K as a scare card, do people think that I am ahead and should bet the turn to protect my hand, or do people think that I am ahead and should check/call the turn to let the LAG bet the K as a scare card with a worse hand? What are the probabilities of being ahead/behind here, do people think, and what is the best line, given those probabilities. I admit I was in a pickled.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Its really easier to judge if you're ahead if you say a little more about his flop typical flop play.

If he's raising 18% of the time, I'd guess he's the kind who raises with any pair, and 2 suited, any ace, any connectors and probably any 2 broadway. And probably quite a lot of bets with junk simply because he has position.

based simply on his raising percentage, there's a respectable chance that you're ahead. Just as important, he could have a hand better then yours (like a pair of 10s) but fold.

His range of hands is too broad to put him on a hand. But since his range is so broad, you could certainly be ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
should check/call the turn to let the LAG bet the K as a scare card with a worse hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't like this. Because so often they will overbet the pot. I would rathar control the size of the bets and make him question what you're holding.

If you bet the turn and he calls again... I'd be pretty nervous. (I have fired third shots in situations like this and won... but in those cases, I had a very good on how the person played the flop.)

I'll prevent you from having to read more of my ramblings tonight. I'm off to sleep.

I'll be checking in tomorrow to hear what happened. I hate leaving without knowing the ending. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

To play GOOD poker you can't wind tunnel play these hands and get good advice. To give accurate effective advice in this scenario I'd need to know three things.

1) Does LAG call a lot of flop bets and fold when bet into again?
2) How often does he push his stack?
3) Have you been laying down a lot of hands recently?

On the turn both of you are near a push or check scenario. Especially you. You have roughly $40 left. Being a LAG myself, I'll look certain player types up (especially weak/tight players and flops like this) and flat call flop bets to see if I'm bet into again on the turn. If I'm not I'll push them off the hand (again against certain player types).

So your options are:
A) Check and give up the hand, in which you will most likely be bet into.
B) Push, and hope you're ahead.

Yes, you could be behind to a set or overpair, but there is a large range of hands that you beat here. The major problem here IS the turn card itself. Villian could have easily called with overcards (especially if he's a LAG) and now have hit his hand, which is quite likely. LAGS will raise with almost any Ace and king combo. So combine the fact that he could have already had you beat on the flop, the king adds more uncertantity.

I really don't like getting my whole stack in here with A9. Considering everything I think I'd check and see how the action is back to you.

There is another line that you could use that may confuse the villian, but it just depends how observant/aggresive he is. You could bet 1/4 of the pot attempting to represent a strong hand that wants a call. By risking a smaller amount but taking the lead, you may get villian to fold, but you may also see a cheaper showdown. If he's not a very observant LAG he may just take the bet as a sign of weakness and come back over the top, and then you'll have the same decision you had a little while ago, but with an extra couple of chips less. I wouldn't advise this line without a good read of course though. You have to have a real feel for your opponent.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

yuk oop raise with A9o
flop bet standard
check-fold after flopbet gets called unless you hit a/9

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

[ QUOTE ]
yuk oop raise with A9o
flop bet standard
check-fold after flopbet gets called unless you hit a/9

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, this is 6 max AND villian is laggy raising with wide range of hands. I think pre-flop raise is fine, BUT I don't think there's much fold equity here against a LAG.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

I think reraise preflop is fine. A bit on the small side though. I'd probably make it a dollar more.

I don't really get the lines people are advocating. He will certainly bet if we check to him, so we should bet to avoid being blown off the hand? If we bet, we've commited us to the pot, so I can't see how this has any benefit when we are behind (except to maybe make him fold TT), and if he will always bet when checked to, it has to be obvious that checking is superior when we're ahead.

In not-mixing-it-up-mode I'm checking that turn against a LAG everytime, weather I have KK or 72o (only time i'd consider betting would be with a draw). Question is to decide what do do when action gets back to me. That's read dependent, but I think I'm calling most of the time (well, I'm pushing in the few dollars I'd have left after the call that is).

Will he make a real raise preflop if he has AK/AA-JJ or are all his preflop raises the minimum?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

This is a very good post, I think, thanks. I thought at the time that he would have made a real raise with a real hand and that he was mostly min-raising garbage. When he called my re-raise, of course it had to occur to me that he might have a real hand, but he also could call that re-raise with any two really. Also, if he had a monster, I thought he was the type to push preflop instead of flat call. But I was pretty uncertain. In any case, I checked the turn for the reasons that you said. Now what?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP ($64.05)</font>
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($59.1)</font>
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.5</font>, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP calls $14, Button folds.

Turn: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero...?

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

The new and more aggro me bets most (or all?) of my chips on the river because it gives my opponent a chance to make a mistake as long as he doesn't have a monster. I don't know if he'll fold better hands, I don't know if he'll call with worse hands, but I'm pretty damn sure he's not putting me on A9 so I know he has to make a mistake with some certain range of hands, even if I don't know what it is. If I check and he bets, then I really have no fuxoring clue what to do, because he's probably going to take a stab at the pot with any sort of busted hand after I check twice, but I'd also expect him to bet with many hands better than mine.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

btw, I'm not a fan of the turn check, unless you're giving up on the pot. Betting out here is your best chance to move your opponent off of QQ-TT, assuming he gives you some respect. As with the river bet that I proposed, it's something of a two-way bet... maybe he'll fold a better hand, maybe he'll call with a worse hand. Depends how big the L is in LAG. Also letting him take a free card when he's trailing sorta sucks.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

Thanks for the comments, guys. And definitely feel free to add more. This hand caused me more problems than any hand in a while. I think that was the combination of a tenuous holding, a shortish stack in relation to the pot, and a LAG opponent, out of position, making for difficult times.

Here are my thoughts:
Preflop, usually I muck this because there is just too much of a chance to be dominated so I won't even call the min-raise. However, this guy was min-raising crap all night and a few others had called so there was some cash in the pot, so I thought I could most likely take it down preflop. Also, remember that the converter removes your blind when you raise out of the blinds for some reason, so I actually raised to $5, not $4.5. You can tell, because everyone has to call $4 more after calling the initial $1.

When he calls, I start to get nervous slightly, but I think that he will play strong with a truly premium hand here so I'm not worried about AA/KK/QQ. I think something like QJs or KQs is possible or many worse hands as well. Could be a small pair, too.

Flop, I have TPTK against a LAG and a short stack. If the short stack beats me, fine, nothing I can do about it. But I want to force the LAG to drop a hand with 6 outs against me, and he also could have the flush draw (probably with at least one over) which would have tons of outs against me. So I bet full pot.

Turn, once he called on the flop, I started to become very afraid of TT/JJ or flush draw + overs which could very likely have been hit by the K. I basically gave up on the hand. I decided to check/fold the turn. I think this is a mistake, however. I think I should probably push. His flat call looks like it may be a draw, a push may get him to fold TT/JJ, and perhaps most importantly it removes the possibility of my folding the best hand to a LAG.

River, once he checked on the turn, I put him on the flush draw which hit on the river. So my basic plan was to c/f the river since I assumed he would push it all in. However, when I checked it to him, he only bet $10 into a $40+ pot. I felt obliged to call at that price since he could be betting a missed straight draw, a lower one pair hand, or just complete air so I figured I would be good more than 20% of the time.

So, in total, I think I butchered the hand. Against such a bad player, who also has LAG tendencies (although I came to realise that was more preflop than postflop - but didn't know that at the time of the hand) I think I should have pushed the turn as a two-way bet as soah suggests and also to protect against a draw.

Here is the whole hand:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP ($64.05)</font>
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($59.1)</font>
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.5</font>, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP calls $14, Button folds.

Turn: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

Final Pot: $64.25

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 9s Ad (two pair, kings and nines).
MP has 5d 7d (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $64.25. </font>

He ended up with the hand I was furthest from putting him on: a double-gutbuster. All additional comments on this weird hand most certainly welcome!

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

note:

Honestly, I would have considered a reraise on the river.

Here's my thoughts: (and you can contradict me if this player is different)... I find these kind of players (these lags who minraise with crap) bet very strongly when they have a real hand. I rarely see these type make small value bets. They minraise preflop and go nuts when they hit. If he had a flush, he wouldn't bet 1/4 pot. (granted in this case, he would have likely folded anyways)

On another note, I still stand by my earlier line to bet the turn. You reraised him preflop. He's much more likely to give you credit for a king and would likely fold a midpair. I still say against a lag, you can't show weakness. I'm actually surprised he didn't the turn.

I wouldn't give this advice against all player... but against a LAG who minraises with these kinds of cards, I think you're going to be right more often then not and I think it would be positive EV.

But I still say don't make the play you did preflop on the button. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I still say don't make the play you did preflop on the button. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, makes you wonder who's the LAG! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for the comments. I should've bet the turn.

Re: weird re-raise hand (play along)
 

I like to shut em out with a bigger raise pf - perhaps 6 or so (I would also do this with big pairs and AK type hands in this spot fairly often).

If anybody calls, then I assume they have FD and bet hard on a non club. Club comes and I shutdown. Called/raised on the turn without improvement ... .then gotta make a guess!!