Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Crazy Pineapple 8/b. You get dealt 3 cards, discard one after the flop. Play the rest of the hand as holdem hi/lo 8 or better.

If your first two cards are

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Which card would you rather be dealt in your hand as your 3rd card?

A. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
B. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Just choose between the two.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

b.... why would you ever want A? One of your lows would be out, one of your spades would be out.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
b.... why would you ever want A? One of your lows would be out, one of your spades would be out.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a very heated debate about this at our CP/8 table last night.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Your dream flop would include a nine of spades with another spade. Still possible with 8 of spades (8, 10s, 3s) but less likely.

Also the nine is a better kicker...

Of course, the 8 plays better in a flush draw, but I don't think killing one of your spades and the lower card compensate.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

But if a deuce flops, you still have an 8 low if you choose. How much is that worth, compared to losing one of your "scoop cards".

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I'm going with the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I don't want a spade and a low card out of play. They only benfit I see to the 8 is having an extra low card if the deuce gets counterfeited, but it's not exactly a great low card.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Neither choice is good, but I'd choose the 9d.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I would like to change my answer. Given this is high low, when you flop a flush draw, you may also have a low draw or backdoor low draw to go with it. The quality of the low draw is not quite as important in holdem since you opps will so often get counterfitted. I'm not saying you would play the A8 as a low draw on it's own, but it would be a strong backup if you flop a spade draw.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
Which card would you rather be dealt in your hand as your 3rd card?

A. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
B. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

B. This seems so obvious to me.

Why is getting counterfeit such a big concern here?

I would rather be drawing at nut-nut hands.

You have a better chance of flushing with the spade still out there, and a better chance of the low with the 8 still out there.

Are you suggesting that if your hand was A28 of spades that you would discard the 2?

That doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Well I'd certainly love to hear the argument for A, since I can't see it. It might be because I'm a poker n00b, and if that is in fact the case, all the more reason for wanting to hear the arguments for A.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

You are correct.

I think I'll stick to commenting on games I actually know how to play!

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that if your hand was A28 of spades that you would discard the 2?


[/ QUOTE ]

In CP, you get to take the flop before discarding. The arguement for wanting the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is that if you get a flop that is something like 236 rainbow, you've still got a playable low by discarding the 2, although not a very good one.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

The problem with that argument is, even in the 'great' flop of a 2 3 6 2-spades, you'd have bottom pair, nut flush draw, with one of your spade outs already gone, and also with a low that is sure to be beaten.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Thanks for clarifying that the discard happens after the flop.

I'm still not sure what kind of flop would be better for you with the 8 instead of the 9, except the obvious like 888.

If I have to draw, I want to draw to the nuts. Nut low, nut high, doesn't matter to me, but it needs to be to the nuts. (unless there are other factors like a SH game or something)

If the argument keeps going, I guess you would just have to figure out how many favorable flops you could get with one hand over the other and let that decide it.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
with a low that is sure to be beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing is ever sure in CP/8. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Given that suitedness is not an issue (you already have a suited 2) and that any given hand is just as likely with an 8 as a 9, the 9 definitely has the edge in high

With A2, assuming im playing for low, I can't think of a situation where I would discard the two and not the 8.

Consider a flop like 257 with the A28 hand... Yeah, I could keep a made low of marginal strength (A2578), but with 15 outs to the nut low, I am most likely going to discard my 8 anyway.

With a hand like 25K, yeah, A2 needs runner-runner to make a low, but id rather play bottom-pair over card kicker with a runner runner draw to the nut low than a 15 outer to a crappy low that probably wont hold up (one way or the other, id toss a hand like this given any serious action after the flop)

The only low hand where i might chuck the 2 and play the 8 would be something goofy like a board of 679 rainbow, where A8 gives me a good draw at a powerful high with some scoop possibilities, and the A2 doesn't represent a made nut low.


[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for clarifying that the discard happens after the flop.

I'm still not sure what kind of flop would be better for you with the 8 instead of the 9, except the obvious like 888.

If I have to draw, I want to draw to the nuts. Nut low, nut high, doesn't matter to me, but it needs to be to the nuts. (unless there are other factors like a SH game or something)

If the argument keeps going, I guess you would just have to figure out how many favorable flops you could get with one hand over the other and let that decide it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Hey,

I'd take A.

The benefit of an additional possible low draw outweighs the loss of one flush card.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I have to draw, I want to draw to the nuts. Nut low, nut high, doesn't matter to me, but it needs to be to the nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I would want the nine. I was just pointing out that the advocates of the 8 are saying it gives you another possible low. That way it the flop counterfeited your 2, you've still got a shot, albeit a weak one.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I haven't read the other responses, but my intial instinct was to keep the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] because 'why would I need another spade?' and it's a higher kicker. But I figured if that was my initial instinct then it must be wrong (thank you George Castanza) and then I realized if the flop comes high so that no low is possible it's better to have the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so you can discard the 2 and still have a flush draw with a better kicker.

This ends up being more valuable than keeping the nine for kicker reasons in the long run.

How's that Clark?

Do I get a cookie?

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I read the other responses. I never even considered keeping the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for low reasons in case your 2 is counterfeited. But that's probably because A8 low is next to worthless.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
I realized if the flop comes high so that no low is possible it's better to have the 8 so you can discard the 2 and still have a flush draw with a better kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's only one A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If you make an ace high flush, your kicker is irrelevant, and this is CP, not stud...you can't have 2 ace high flushes in play. Plus, you've got one less card in the deck to make your flush.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realized if the flop comes high so that no low is possible it's better to have the 8 so you can discard the 2 and still have a flush draw with a better kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's only one A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If you make an ace high flush, your kicker is irrelevant, and this is CP, not stud...you can't have 2 ace high flushes in play. Plus, you've got one less card in the deck to make your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't want to keep it for that reason. I want to keep in in case the flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

So you still have a flush draw, but with a higher kicker as you would discard the 2 and your ace low is counterfeited into top pair.

Are you gonna explain the hand rankings to me now? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Sorry. But you did say "flush draw with a better kicker" instead of, "flush draw and a better kicker," implying that the kicker went with the flush draw. It's a semantic arguement now, and I just misunderstood what you said.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

And that would come into play when your opponent had an ace, and two cards below an 8 with it, elected to continue playing with tpnk in the face of numerous straight and flush possibilities _and_ neither the turn or river brought a 9,T,J,Q,K, or A (which is to say, more than half the deck negates your kicker in the case you keep the 8)...



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realized if the flop comes high so that no low is possible it's better to have the 8 so you can discard the 2 and still have a flush draw with a better kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's only one A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If you make an ace high flush, your kicker is irrelevant, and this is CP, not stud...you can't have 2 ace high flushes in play. Plus, you've got one less card in the deck to make your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't want to keep it for that reason. I want to keep in in case the flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

So you still have a flush draw, but with a higher kicker as you would discard the 2 and your ace low is counterfeited into top pair.

Are you gonna explain the hand rankings to me now? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to keep it for that reason. I want to keep in in case the flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

So you still have a flush draw, but with a higher kicker as you would discard the 2 and your ace low is counterfeited into top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
That won't happen often enough to be of significance. Much more often you will get a flop like Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], where your EV will be higher if your third card (which you discard) is the 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] rather than the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Another starting hand question
 

Rank the following starting hands in Crazy Pineapple 8/b from best to worst:

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I don't think the preflop action should affect the rankings, but if it does, then assume you are on the button and two players have limped already.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I have no clue what the right answer is. I posted it because it was debated at our table Friday night. For the record, I think the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is the preferable card. The 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is just such a key card for the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] portion of our hand, one of 6 cards that we really really want to see on the flop. Plus, the 9 kicker is superior to the 8 kicker and 9's are better than 8's. OTOH, the made 8-low is better far more often than many here are giving credit for in this game. It's not Omaha and 2-card lows are rarer than one thinks, especially on something like a 236 board where not only A2 and A3 are killed, but the 234, 235 types of hands are killed also.

I just think the potential for the 8s to appear on the board is too valuable to want the card in our hand, but I could easily be wrong.

Re: Another starting hand question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rank the following starting hands in Crazy Pineapple 8/b from best to worst:

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

1. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
5. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
6. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
7. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
8. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

That's the order I'd go with. For today, anyways. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Another starting hand question
 

Interesting; I would have placed AA9 at the top of that list.

Also I'd tend to think that A2K is better than A23.

Re: Another starting hand question
 

Remember, you are talking to a man who currently has a strategy of playing his top 93% of hands.

Re: Another starting hand question
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. A23
2. A23
3. A2K
4. A2K
5. A2K
6. A2K
7. AA9
8. AAA

That's the order I'd go with. For today, anyways.



[/ QUOTE ]

Switch 3 & 4.

3) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Otherwise my list would be the same.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

Perhaps in a really rare circumstance where theres a couple of limpers and small bets, and the flop is 679 two spades. You could opt to push in with a open ended flush draw with a horrible low, or draw to two nuts. 58 and 810 aren't too common so your straight draw SHOULD be alive... I'd personally rather draw to two nuts of course unless im sure he has like 99 77 66 and I can scoop.

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I wonder whether the number of players makes a difference. It seems like an A8 low would be more powerful heads up or shorthanded.

Still its probably best to have the 9.

Re: Another starting hand question
 

Aren't you overvaluing A23? In this game A23 is a good hand, of course, but not that good. It isn't like Stud 8/b or Omaha 8/b where A23 (or A23x) has a great chance at scooping a big pot.

For example, if you have A23 and the flop comes A86, you probably will discard the ace, so you won't get the high half. If the flop comes AQ7, it may be a tough decision what to discard but whatever your choice it is unlikely you will make both the best high and the best low.

For that reason I would argue that any AA is a better starting hand than A23. With AA9 you have an excellent shot at the high half (and will sometimes get the low also), but with A23 you often won't win either half.

Also I think AK2 is a better starting hand than A23.

Re: Another starting hand question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, you are talking to a man who currently has a strategy of playing his top 93% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, I really don't see how it's possible to be dealt a bad hand. You get three cards!!

Re: Worst 3rd card in Pineapple
 

I'd rather have the 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] lessens your chance to make a flush and lessens your chance to make a low. If you flop top two with the 9d, low hasn't been made. I don't think the 8 adds much in the "emergency low" department. And lastly, a 9 is bigger than an 8, and big cards beat little cards in high forms of poker.

Maybe Buzz will wander over from the O8 forum and give us the definitive answer.