AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

I think that one of my leaks is that I play AKo too strongly in the face of multiple raises.

I made an adjustment on a recent Party 2/4 hand:

I'm new at the table. 3 people from my fish list are at the table, but the raisers are unknowns.

I'm UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I raise
A few folds
MP reraises
CO 3-bets
Blinds fold.

And then I fold.

If there had been a coldcaller or two in the pot, I would've stayed in for value. I figured that I was way behind, though, and given that I don't know either of these guys I decided to play it safe.

Thoughts?

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

NO reads mean that you gotta fold here, bad position and capped betting behind you means even if an A or K does hit you are going to be hard pressed to find out where you are at, which means that you also won't be able to extract proper value those times when you hit the flop and are still ahead

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

I'm not so sure that I would have folded here. After all, just how far behind can you be with AKo? AKo has just over a 48% chance to win the pot against 2 other random hands and I'll grant that you're way behind to AA (7% to win) but not quite as bad against KK (26% to win).

Although the UTG position is a stinker in this situation, the liklihood that you were up against AA or KK has to be offset by the fact that many small stakes games are pretty darn loose and you could have simply been facing two such players.

On the other hand, a bet (or two) saved is a bet (or two) earned and he who fights and runs away can win those chips another day.


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Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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I'm not so sure that I would have folded here. After all, just how far behind can you be with AKo? AKo has just over a 48% chance to win the pot against 2 other random hands

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Are two random hands going to 3-bet and cap this preflop? Break out your equity calculator again and do AKo vs [AA-TT,AKs-AJs,KQs] vs [AA-JJ,AKs]. This is a ridiculously disciplined laydown. I don't know that it was right or wrong, but it took a lot of discipline, that's for certain.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

I agree that it takes dicipline to lay down AKo and I certainly agree that he was not up against random hands. However, he had no read on or experience with these players and the cost of two bets for a little information early in a session isn't such a bad thing either.

In fact, capping and perhaps taking the lead in the hand has great value too. I don't advocate trying to control the action from such early position but please don't disregard the fact that the beginning of a session is a great time to establish yourself as aggressive as that will most definitely pay dividends later in the session.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

I gave the 3-bet AA-TT, AK-AQ, and AJs, and the capper AA-JJ, AK, and AQs.

PokerStove sez: 25/33/41, and you're getting 10:2 immediate odds on the call.

If it were hot and cold, and those ranges were correct, you'd be right to call.

You are out of position, but I'm not sure this hand is so hard to play, though. Assuming the 3-bettor stays in, I think you can safely fold the flop most of the times you miss, and I think you have decent equity most of the times when an A or K shows up.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

Any possibility these guys would tilt and cap with crap hands that you dominate? or are maniacs?

I don't like laying this down at 2/4 with no reads.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

You aren't losing a lot by folding, but you lose something. You won't always be up against an AA or KK, and you don't know these players. MP could hold 77 and CO JJ at Party 2/4. I would see the flop and lead any ace or king on most boards.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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You aren't losing a lot by folding, but you lose something. You won't always be up against an AA or KK, and you don't know these players. MP could hold 77 and CO JJ at Party 2/4. I would see the flop and lead any ace or king on most boards.

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So I'm guessing that a good line might be to coldcall the 2 and then check/fold the flop if I don't hit?

Someone earlier mentioned leading at the flop regardless, but I see that as just spewing chips.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it with a passion. You have AK.

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I figured that I was way behind

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You're not.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

I'm calling. I'm seeing a turn for one bet. This would be a good fold if it went like this:

UTG raise, UTG+1 3-bet, UTG+2 cap, you fold.

Here you already have two bets in.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

Yeah I'd say so. You are getting 5-1 on your call here, but I don't think a laydown is a huge mistake. That said, not having reads on your opponents means you HAVE to call. If you knew both of the raiser to be rocks, you could fold easily. Now if you lost your mind and raised with 22 from EP and it came two back to you THAT would be an easy call no matter the opponent.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

Folding is pretty awful here. The only way you are in bad enough shape to warrant folding is if you are against KK and another AK, or somebody has AA. But you already have one of the aces and one of the kings, so these situations are much less likely than that of being against two lower pairs or AK and QQ, or even better something like AQ and JJ.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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I'm calling. I'm seeing a turn for one bet. This would be a good fold if it went like this:

UTG raise, UTG+1 3-bet, UTG+2 cap, you fold.

Here you already have two bets in.

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Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

I would probably see the flop and then I could better evaluate the situation.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it with a passion. You have AK.

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I figured that I was way behind

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You're not.

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AKos is not a monster. Why wouldn't he be behind a KK or AA? I would surely take a flop, but saying "pedal to the metal, its AK for christs sake" is kinda fishy.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

cap this preflop everytime.

this is really quite basic.

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

are you [censored] kidding me?

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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NO reads mean that you gotta fold here, bad position and capped betting behind you means even if an A or K does hit you are going to be hard pressed to find out where you are at, which means that you also won't be able to extract proper value those times when you hit the flop and are still ahead

[/ QUOTE ]


you're wrong

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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AKos is not a monster. Why wouldn't he be behind a KK or AA? I would surely take a flop, but saying "pedal to the metal, its AK for christs sake" is kinda fishy.

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He said he was "far behind." He's only "far behind" AA and KK, which are somewhat unlikely since you have an A and a K. Assuming you are "far behind" is a mistake. Where did I say "Pedal to the metal, It's AK for Christ’s sake?"

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

it really would help to have some kind of reads in this situation.

[censored] it ill take big slick to war anytime. this just seems too weak to me

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

This is terrible, AK is a super premium hand (it ony connects 1/3 of the time, but when it does you have a monster) How can you fold this getting 5-1? Especially when you don't know the capping range of your opponents (could be a loose range like AK-AQs, AA-TT) Please continue to play AK like the monster it is

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

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I'm calling. I'm seeing a turn for one bet. This would be a good fold if it went like this:

UTG raise, UTG+1 3-bet, UTG+2 cap, you fold.

Here you already have two bets in.

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Even then I really dont think so

Re: AKo preflop - 2 bets back to me
 

This fold is horrible. Raising utg and then folding to a cap is the most weak tight thing I think I have ever heard of. If I was on your table and saw you raise utg and then fold preflop I would be taking shots at you all day.

So we\'ve come to the conclusion that I\'m a fish
 

Thanks for the feedback.

Maybe I just out-thought myself here?