Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

Data mining is defined at getting hand histories at tables they are not playing. Although I have done minimal data mining myself. Usually at tables when I am on waiting lists I really think programs like pokeredge are pretty scary and should be banned.

Ken

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

I think online poker should emulate live poker to the degree that only data that you've accumulated at the table can be used to play against your opponents.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

you can watch tables until you're ready to sit down in live poker too.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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I think online poker should emulate live poker to the degree that only data that you've accumulated at the table can be used to play against your opponents.

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I agree, 100%. I think that if the ability to see opponents hole cards is available, it should be on the same basis as live; someone should have to request it, and everyone at the table should see both the cards and who requested to see them. It should also automatically open an investigation for collusion (that is the purpose of the rule!), and if someone is found to be abusing the rule, their ability to request to see hole cards should be revoked for a time. As it stands, you have to know that you can look up the history to see everyone else's cards, and you can do so secretly; therefore, those who are aware of this "feature" have an unfair advantage over those who are not.

-Mike

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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you can watch tables until you're ready to sit down in live poker too.

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But can I return home, go to sleep, return to the casino 8 hours later and have the dealer hand me a printout documenting everyone's play for that evening?

Can I then post this printout on the internet and sell it for $20 a pop to other scoundrels who wanted to go home and sleep as well?

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

whats pokeredge?

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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whats pokeredge?

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-aron

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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whats pokeredge?

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Seriously, using google isn't that hard.
But anyway, here you go.

poker-edge.com

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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you can watch tables until you're ready to sit down in live poker too.

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You can't watch 20 tables simultaneously and take detailed notes though.

I don't think datamining should be banned. But I guess I do think it is in poor taste and "unsportsmanlike". Before the flaming begins, yes I do like making money. Yes, I do think that a person should make use of every tool that they can.

But, personally I draw the line at datamining... it just seems trashy.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

Yeah I have less of an issue with individual data mining. But sharing all the data in real-time is going to far. And unfortunately there is no simple way to stop this without just not allowing data mining.

I have been using pokertracker and pokerstat since they both were 1st for sale. I also use GT+ and have no particular issue with individuals using programs to look at their own data.

I have written to alerts@partypoker.com and pointed them to pokeredge website and also pointed them to a few other programs like that. I recommend others doing it as well if they think this is going to far.

Ken

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

I really don't understand why Party lets you see hole cards on observed tables. If they simply removed that datamining and Pokeredge would be gone instantly.

I personally don't datamine as I found that all I got was a bunch of data on TAGs but I can see its purpose. But I'll be damned if I'm paying someone to give me nothing more than stats on players. I can figure out all I need to know in 2-3 orbits at a table. I've actually felt since I started using PV that my reading skills have diminished and am considering playing without it for a couple of weeks to see how it goes for me.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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I really don't understand why Party lets you see hole cards on observed tables.

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Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

I played live poker for about 10 years before drifting off to other ventures. A small group of us would share notes on other players ... playing style, tells, ways to tilt them, etc. We never felt restricted to personally observed knowledge. Data mining seems a difference of degree rather than anything new ( admittedly it feels 'off' to me, but alot of computerized actions can have that feel).

With all the TV poker shows, could a group of us watch different shows, compile a database on the players and use that knowledge .. and not be seen as 'going too far'?

I haven't formed a solid opinion on datamining yet, I'm swaying to the "it's hmmm... ok", partly because of it being an expansion of past practice, partly because I think the really valuable skill is in the individual interpretation and application of your conclusions rather than the data.

I hope that's not too controversial for a 1st post.
oh, hi...

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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you can watch tables until you're ready to sit down in live poker too.

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Well even if datamining wasn't allowed, you could watch a table before you sat down without having access to the hand histories. Clearly this is a far cry from having 24 Party skin tables open 24/7.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

I don't favor it because a) I'm biased by using a stats viewer during play, and b) it's nearly pointless to fight technological advances. The genie has escaped the lamp, the best you can do is make information available to anyone that wants to use it. Have a link on Party to software that may be used by some players. Let each person decide if they care.

Trying to put the genie back in the bottle just means you'll have people writing their own programs, using existing ones that are smart enough to change their process names every startup, etc.

They can take steps to reduce the ability to use the programs. Deny hand history requests while running. Deny history requests on tables other than ones you played on, etc.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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Trying to put the genie back in the bottle just means you'll have people writing their own programs, using existing ones that are smart enough to change their process names every startup, etc.

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I buy the argument for PT/PV, etc.

However, there's a very easy way to stop data-mining. Observed hand histories should not contain the mucked hands. Not only does that stop data-mining, it just makes perfect sense.

Try explaining how "the pros" know how someone plays because they have programs that watch you for months before you ever sit down at a table with them. Whether it's improper or not, it certainly has the appearance of impropriety.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

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However, there's a very easy way to stop data-mining. Observed hand histories should not contain the mucked hands. Not only does that stop data-mining, it just makes perfect sense.


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I agree it makes sense. Seems silly to me you can see mucked hands in the hand history.

Won't have a damned bit of impact on data mining though. Datamining is about how often you see the flop, how aggressive you are, etc. None of those stats involve seeing your hand.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

Sure, the question isnt should the mucked cards be displayed. The question is should they give you the ability to request hands that you are not in.

Ken

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

You can ask somebody else at the table how an unknown plays if you are friendly with enough people in the cardroom you'll likely get an honest answer for free.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

I'd say no. You can only get the hands you were involved in. That doesn't prevent data sharing, but it cuts down on the number of people datamining by leaving poker tracker up all day on multiple tables.

Still, on a practical level, I don't know how you're going to stop things like PokerEdge. Granted, you can prevent them from requesting random hand histories, but you can't prevent it from having each subscriber sending their histories automatically.

And detecting it running is just begging for an arms race of ways to prevent detection vs. more system intrusive searched by the Party software. To be honest, I don't want them EVER mucking about in my system. Yea, watch play patterns, timing, etc, checking for collusion and bots, but don't go rifling through my computer.

90% of the value in the tools is table selection anyway. If sites just had more details about tables in the first place two things would happen. First, it'd go 90% of the way to leveling the playing field as everyone would have the most important table related data (saw the flop% and %raise preflop are the main numbers I use). Second, tables would tend to auto-level as players would naturally migrate to the best games, making using GameTime/PokerEdge for table selection less important.

Then the place that PE/GT would really have value is against the long time players with statistically accurate numbers. Here you're largely talking about TAG-on-TAG play, in which case the "these tools fleece newbies" complaint is no longer valid.

I think the edge of having stats on a fish just largely isn't that useful. There's an edge, but compared to the edge of just playing a fish in general, it's not that large. There's largely 2 types of fish, maniac fish and calling station fish and there isn't a lot of complexity in play against them. Specific player stats help me most against the TAG/TAP/TPP players.

Re: Should Data mining be allowed? How about poker-edge
 

Has anyone else seen the pokeredge forum post where some guy claims that empire shut his account down as a result of using Poker Edge? He could have been trolling, but has anyone else been hassled for using it? I'm getting it regardless, but just wondering if there has been any problems with the current crackdown and all.