I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

Guys, Sorry for my English
1) Here is my problem. My VPIP at .5/1 (Party) is ... 9.94 after 500 hands. Yes, this is very few hands. But I believe it will not much greater after even 10000 hands if I wouldn change my starting hands requirements. I play only strong A2, A3s, AA2x (x = whee card) in EP. Strong means no A278 and any other garbage. In MP sometimes I can play less powerful hands, but not A278 again. In LP I do raises with this hands and also limp hand like KQJTo, 234x if there is enough limpers. I also play hands like KK23 DS/SS, QQ23 DS/SS. I really dont like high-only hands.
So, what hands can I add to my play list?

2) What do you think about this particular hands?
Ad Ah Ks 4s - i would fold it even in LP
AA53 rainbow - limp or raise after 3-6 limpers
Qs Js 9H 8c - fold
AA56 DS - fold in EP, limp/raise in MP, LP

3) How did I played this?
***** Hand History for Game 2255449874 *****
$0.5/$1 Omaha Hi/Lo - Friday, June 24, 09:45:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 25406 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Listok ( $9.75 )
Seat 2: Dimm_ ( $34.88 )
Seat 3: MrPokerBrain ( $24.5 )
Seat 4: kiddeb ( $27.25 )
Seat 5: Drexel52 ( $28.18 )
Seat 6: dontUlikeMe ( $18.38 )
Seat 7: Orsino ( $16.94 )
Seat 8: Scorpion65 ( $23.32 )
Seat 9: MyTurn2Raise ( $18.05 )
Seat 10: un_owen ( $28.8 )
MyTurn2Raise posts small blind [$0.25].
un_owen posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dontUlikeMe [ 5c Ks Ah 2d ]
Listok calls [$0.5].
Dimm_ folds.
MrPokerBrain calls [$0.5].
kiddeb folds.
Drexel52 folds.
dontUlikeMe calls [$0.5].
Orsino folds.
MyTurn2Raise calls [$0.25].
un_owen checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 9h, Kh ]
MyTurn2Raise checks.
un_owen checks.
Listok checks.
MrPokerBrain checks.
dontUlikeMe bets [$0.5].
MyTurn2Raise calls [$0.5].
un_owen folds.
Listok folds.
MrPokerBrain folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
MyTurn2Raise checks.
dontUlikeMe bets [$1].
MyTurn2Raise calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
MyTurn2Raise checks.
dontUlikeMe bets [$1].
MyTurn2Raise calls [$1].
dontUlikeMe shows [ 5c, Ks, Ah, 2d ] four of a kind, twos.
MyTurn2Raise doesn't show [ 7c, 3h, Ad, 4h ] a flush, king high.
dontUlikeMe wins $7 from the main pot with four of a kind, twos.
There was no qualifying low hand.

4) Some my stats (I think I had some luck and some sooo stupid players who gave me additional money)
vol_saw_flop 9.9415
saw_flop_sb 17.5000
co_pct_wsf 30.4348
co_total_won 19.9600
co_big_bets_won 5.8363
sd_pct 36.2319
co_sd_win 72.0000
pf_raise 1.7544

Thanks for help. GL and EV+ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

AKs,

I'm not sure where to start, so let's go to the hand you posted first.

3) I would have played it the same. I don't think there is any need to get tricky on the river with a check raise. You might miss a bet. Put anyone who would call down a 2nd nut flush to an early full house board on your "buddy list" and play with him every day.

Lets take 1) and 2) together:

Dude...you have got to loosen up. I mean that in the nicest sort of way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] First of all, you are leaving a lot of potential profits on the table if you don't play hands like A A K 4 single suited from late position. In fact, I'm raising this hand 9 times out of 10 in late position.

As for the others on the list, I probably fold them as well. If the A A 5 6 is double suited, I probably see a flop.

If you play any A 2, most A 3, A A with some help and any 4 cards 9 or better, plus a big blind a small blind, you will take your VPIP up close to 20%.

When you get a stronger hand in late position, raise with it. Limp from early position.

I like your win numbers, but I have a feeling that's just from the short term variance that you mentioned. If nothing else, loosen up so that you aren't bored out of your mind after an hour of hitting the fold button. (Two playable hands per hour would kill me.)

Good luck.

Dave

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ad Ah Ks 4s - i would fold it even in LP

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] That hand is gold, especially in LP!

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

Thanks for advices.
Yes, I really NEED to loosen up. I like my post flop play but my preflop is awful.
OK, I'll try to play AAK4 single suited (but I dont like this hand) and maybe any A2 (but I think a lot of A2xx is trash). But any four cards higher then 9? It will be hard for me to do it because I hate high card only.
Here is the stat of my last session:
Total Hands: 276
Vol. Put $ in The Pot: 6.88
Vol. Put $ in From SB: 12.5
Won $ WSF $: 24.44
Amount Won: -6.72
Went to SD: 35.56
Won $ at SD: 56.25
PF Raise $: 1.45

Yeah it was unlucky session. I had so few Aces dealt to me and some unlucky river... But I think only my PRE-FLOP is killing me

Another comments?

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ad Ah Ks 4s - i would fold it even in LP

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] That hand is gold, especially in LP!

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you like this hand? Without an Ace on the flop this hand is not good IMHO. Low posibilities are pure. High possibilities... I have a pair of aces and sometimes non-flush draw. Is it good??

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

By the way AK...your English is very good.

The reason this hand is good in late position is that when it works, you are going to 3/4 or scoop someone a lot of the time. When it doesn't work, you can get away from it cheaply.

In late position, you raise preflop so that the betting gets checked around to you and if you don't catch an A, 2, 3 or two of your suits on the flop, you can check and most likely get to the turn without putting in another big bet.

That's a lot of outs that make your hand better AND can potentially destroy someone else's hand. You have to look at it from both sides.

Dave

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

Hm, and maybe I should try PLO8? Blinds are not so big and I could concentate on post-flop play. Also I heard PLO8 is more profitable...

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, Sorry for my English
1) Here is my problem. My VPIP at .5/1 (Party) is ... 9.94 after 500 hands. Yes, this is very few hands. But I believe it will not much greater after even 10000 hands if I wouldn change my starting hands requirements. I play only strong A2, A3s, AA2x (x = whee card) in EP. Strong means no A278 and any other garbage. In MP sometimes I can play less powerful hands, but not A278 again. In LP I do raises with this hands and also limp hand like KQJTo, 234x if there is enough limpers. I also play hands like KK23 DS/SS, QQ23 DS/SS. I really dont like high-only hands.
So, what hands can I add to my play list?

2) What do you think about this particular hands?
Ad Ah Ks 4s - i would fold it even in LP
AA53 rainbow - limp or raise after 3-6 limpers
Qs Js 9H 8c - fold
AA56 DS - fold in EP, limp/raise in MP, LP


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're too tight. In fact, I think I'M too tight, which is why I want to see many responses to this post.

A278. It's a playable hand with weak opposition which is what you have at Party .50/1. One of the main benefits with A2 is NOT that you have the nut low draw, but that your other cards are nearly freerolling for high while you have the nut low draw. You'd love to make a straight with 78 while getting a low. Normally, you wouldn't play 78 because you either make a crap straight, or the nut straight playing for half the pot. Since you have A2, it's got scooping potential if you get favorable middle cards on the flop. Also, many people play non-nut lows in this game. Don't think you're quartered every time a low is out there.

AAK4, I could defintely play this in LP. Remember, one of the benefits of position is that you get to see action in front of you. You can tell if no one likes their hand and bet at it, or fold if there's a ton of action indicating that better draws are out against you.

AA53. I wouldn't necessarily raise with this hand, but can't fault you for doing so. Just be prepared to get away from the hand if people go nuts. Honestly, I think you'd be better off raising with this hand later when your edge is greater.

AA56. This is okay to play in LP as well, but I don't like raising with it either. I guess its double suitedness makes up for the lessor low possiblities.

QJ98 - I fold this every time as well.

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

I would think your biggest problem is insane boredom.

You are defnitely leaving lots of profit on the table playing that tight. And will get no action unless beat from the few people who do pay attention.

Greg
www.o8poker.com

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

AKsPRO - A few short comments:

(1) A278n has a 13.6% overall win rate, but only 2.4% scoop rate against eight no fold 'em opponents playing random hands. While that's not great, it seems at least playable in certain situations.

[ QUOTE ]
what hands can I add to my play list?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can easily play looser. Keep in mind, however, that tighter is safer, especially as a beginner.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about this particular hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

(2) I'll probably play them all, depending. But that's not to say you should.

AA4Ks-: When you have a hand with one ace, a king adds good value. For example, with A23X, A35X, A45X, etc. the king is a welcome addition as a fourth card. But when you have a pair of aces, the king doesn't add much. With AA4X, where X is not A, 2, 3, or 4, you'd much rather have a five or six than a king. Even so, AA4K with a suited king (I'd write AA4Ks-) is a strong hand if you play well. But you need to either make something happen or find a nice fit with the flop. If you just limp along and chase, depending, you can end up throwing away your money.

AA35n: I hate rainbow hands, but this one is certainly playable. How to play it depends on the situation.

89JQs: Marginal, for sure. You won't go far wrong if you tend to avoid hands with two middle cards (I consider six, seven, eight, and nine middle cards). Fold is probably a good plan for you and also for me - but I'll probably see the flop with that hand sometimes, mainly because of table image considerations, depending. If I haven't played a hand for a while and if I have good position or there is some other consideration, and if I can see the flop cheaply, I might sometimes play the hand. I also might play the hand if a targeted opponent who is throwing money away will also be in the hand. The only way you can profit from the mistakes of your opponents is to be in the hand with them. (You obviously need to exercise judgement here).

AA56d: I'm seeing the flop with that one from any position, sometimes raising and sometimes limping, depending. Double suited aces with a wheel card is a premium hand. Big mistake not to play that one, in my humble opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
How did I played this?

[/ QUOTE ]

(3) Considering the action, I have no suggestions. In any event, since you ended up winning with four of a kind, you played fine. I don't like your hand/flop fit much, but since everybody checked to you (and then subsequently folded), it seems reasonable to bet. If you knew you were going to end up with quads, you'd like more chasers, and it turns out you would have done better to check the flop - but you had no way of knowing your dog of a hand/flop fit would turn into quads.

(4) The language you're using is very esoteric. Alas, I'm not part of the inner circle, since I don't play on-line. Looks like you on-line people have a nifty way of tracking what you're doing so as to improve your game. I'm envious.

Buzz

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
(1) A278n has a 13.6% overall win rate, but only 2.4% scoop rate against eight no fold 'em opponents playing random hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what about 3/4 ing and amount won when you win? I don't think Wilson or Boston have that included, but intuitively it seems like your big wins there are going to be when you have A2 for low with someone else and you make a straight/two pair for high.

I got Boston's book (nice reco, thanks), and think it's helpful, but it seems like the pots you win with decent A2xx hands should be relatively bigger and the ones you "lose" often still get you 1/4 or little loses.

Wheras the pots you win with, say, reasonable AAxx hands are samller cause more people folded or misses their hands so aren't jamming.

or maybe my AAxx hands just haven't held up much recently [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
--Greg

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

Guys, thank you for your reponses.
Whats comments about this?
[ QUOTE ]
Hm, and maybe I should try PLO8? Blinds are not so big and I could concentate on post-flop play. Also I heard PLO8 is more profitable...

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course I will continue play limit and improve my game style. But what about just try PLO8?

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what about 3/4 ing and amount won when you win? I don't think Wilson or Boston have that included,

[/ QUOTE ]

They do have that included. If a hand wins for high and gets quartered for low (a 3/4 win) 0.5 wins are added to the high-only total and 0.25 wins are added to the low-only total. Thus every 1.0 point for high is either from
• two wins for high, but with an opponent getting all or a share of low,
• four two way ties for high, but with an opponent getting all or a share of low,
• six three way ties for high, but with an opponent getting all or a share of low,
• eight four way ties for high, but with an opponent getting all or a share of low.
The same sort of thing is true for wins that are counted as low wins.
Scoops, of course, are counted neither as high wins (although some scoops are with purely high-only hands) nor as low wins, but are counted in a separate scoop column. Each scoop counts as exactly 1 win.

[ QUOTE ]
but intuitively it seems like your big wins there are going to be when you have A2 for low with someone else and you make a straight/two pair for high.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't necessarily seem that way to me. My experience is that a huge scooper sometimes comes when you have a hand that gets a perfect river card.

For example, you might have A5KK, and be playing after a flop of 34K-rainbow, then have the turn be a nine of the fourth suit and the river be a deuce. You end up with a wheel for the scoop. Whether the pot is huge or not depends on who else has been in the hand with you and how much action they give.

As a second example, maybe you have 34QQd, see the flop of 67Q, then the turn is another seven and the river a nine. You scoop a huge pot when no opponent has quad sevens.

Win a big one by getting three quarters when you eke out a win for high with two pair and also share the nut low with an opponent who was jamming like a fool? Sure, that can happen too. But you also can easily end up with just a quarter of that pot.

[ QUOTE ]
I got Boston's book (nice reco, thanks), and think it's helpful, but it seems like the pots you win with decent A2xx hands should be relatively bigger and the ones you "lose" often still get you 1/4 or little loses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I recall advising you that you'd be happier with the source of Boston's book, Wilson's simulator. But whatever.

Boston used a line-up of very tight players for his simulations, very unlike the line-ups I regularly face. In a very tight game, A2xx hands don't do as well, while AAxx hands do much better, than against the typical loose or semi-loose line-up I usually face. Thus Boston's results are heavily skewed in favor of hands that do well against a tight, tough line-up.

But hands that do well against a tight, tough line-up don't necessarily do very well against a more typical looser, softer line-up. Meanwhile other hands that don't do very well against Boston's choice of characters fare reasonably well against the typically looser characters I regularly encounter.

But in any event, Boston still used Wilson's simulator, and presented Wilson's results for the "win high" and "win low" columns.

A hand that won exclusively for high but got quartered for low would add 0.50 to Boston's "win high" column and add 0.25 to the "win low" column.

Would your win rate be the same for a particular hand as the particular Wilson character Mr. Boston chose to play the hand against the group of Wilson characters Mr. Boston chose for opponents? Would you fold and stay with the same programmed parameters as the particular Wilson character chosen to play the sample hand? Would your opponents fold or stay the same as the Wilson characters chosen? These are all rhetorical questions.

I don't mean to seem critical of Mr. Boston. On the contrary, I appreciate his work.

Buzz

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

#3 What was I thinking?

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

Buzz,

Have you tried to replicate any of Boston's work with looser tables?

Re: I am awfully tight pre flop. And some others questions
 

personally, i beleive any A2XX is playable and profitable from any position (for one bet) in your typical micro PP game