Low Limit Problems
 

I've run into this problem many times playing low limit stud hi $1-$2 and $2-$4.

I catch something like live kings or aces with a two flush in late position and there are 3-6 people who have already called the bring in or completion. If there weren't all those callers before me i would almost definately bet to thin the field, or at least get the money in with the best hand. But with so many callers there is plenty of money in the pot to justify a call with even marginal hands. Is it right to bet here knowing pretty much no one is going to fold, or should i just take the cheap card and sit on my hand until forth or fifth street and make my move there so long as nobody else has significantly improved?

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

so... you're suggesting that we not build the pot while we are a favourite and instead, do so when we are an underdog? Ingenious!

Seriously though, If the players are tight enough to fold 5th without making the low or a monster 4low and live straight, then I'll go ahead and flat call and bet out next street. If they are loose and will draw to half to the river, then I'll go ahead and complete. I might also call if there's two or more As in the hand and see how they play it. If they hit a low or bet out after bricking, I'd be tempted to leave. As for slowplaying... don't bother since everyone knows what you have no matter how you play it.

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

He's only talking about stud hi not hi/lo, and my experience with games like these is that these people will draw to just about anything and are unlikely to fold until 5th.

To the OP: Assuming that your kicker and 2 flush are live or semi live I throw out a raise. Then you just need to get better at reading your opponents board texture. If they catch another of their suit and it is still live be wary, same thing if they catch a connecting card. Be less afraid of paired doorcards in a game like this unless that opponent suddenly gets aggressive.

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

If I got a dollar everytime I replyed to a stud hi post with stud hilow reasoning, I wouldn't need to play poker at all! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

[ QUOTE ]
so... you're suggesting that we not build the pot while we are a favourite and instead, do so when we are an underdog? Ingenious!



[/ QUOTE ]

BigRed,

You've put some noob questions on here too, please be respectful to people. There's no need for this stuff. Not only that, OP's question was totally reasonable, and a challenge for all those who play LL stud.

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

If you're pretty sure a raise won't drive people out you probably shouldn't do it too often, a 2 flush makes the raise a bit better. In pacific's 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6 games, which are really soft and call happy, I often wait till 4th and go for a check-raise if no one threatening has paired his or her door card. In games where most people are very reluctant to fold before 5th I usually try to make it 5th as cheaply as possible. On 4th I'll need a good reason to bet out, such as 2 pair or 2-3 people catching blanks, but I'll raise if I get the chance. Then I can focus on playing 5th-7th better than them. If a spot opens up for a check raise take it. The toughest thing about these games is adjusting to the mood swings of LP players.... sometimes they'll all of a sudden start folding, and others they'll call 3 bets cold with a pair of sevens. I've found that after I've won a few big pots my raises start getting the respect they'd get at a tighter table. But if I'm really aggressive with kings or aces or other big hands and lose, the table concensus is to call anything anytime.

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

with a big pair and a live two flush two straight, you should raise. not to knock people out, but because your equity is high.

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

[ QUOTE ]
with a big pair and a live two flush two straight, you should raise. not to knock people out, but because your equity is high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. You need to raise here and don't think twice about it. The limpers are not going to understand that they shouldnt call a raise on 5th anyway because the pot is small. Get your money in now while you are ahead. You may have to fold by 5th but you will more than make up for the extra bets lost with huge pots being shipped over to you when you win. The times when you don't fold 5th, you will often get the best of both worlds and someone will bet into you forgetting about your 3rd street raise and then you can get the extra money in on third and the raise in on 5th.

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

[ QUOTE ]
so... you're suggesting that we not build the pot while we are a favourite and instead, do so when we are an underdog? Ingenious!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was really just saying that it may be better to see if I improve or if their board hasn't improved greatly by forth street to put the bet in there where it has a chance of thinning the field

Re: Low Limit Problems
 

I was just jesting. I'm sure I make more noob comments than everyone else here combined. Hope he didn't take it too seriously. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Good better best decisions!
 

Good, Better, Best decisions!

Dear Pei,

You raise one of the most important questions in Poker.
Is the potential profit from raising in pre flop situations (lots of old pros still call stud’s fourth street the flop) worth the risk, since you don’t know if the fourth street will hit one or more of your opponents hard? (A good example is when you big pair advantage is killed by having two tight opponents pair their door cards)

The answer is that yes! It is very much in your favor to get your bets in early.

If you didn’t would you decision have been wrong. The answer is no. Starting with suited live Aces and Kings carries so much potential pot equity, that if that had been your decision you still would have positive expectations. And would be a correct one.

But AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: Your potential profits from pushing your big live pairs are so great that you just have to maximize your profits from them when you have the opportunity.

Several years ago three studies were done on American and British Casino poker players. Several hundred randomly selected players in each study were monitored as to their profits and losses each time they visited the casino.(One study was done at the University of Nevada and another at Oxford) What they found was that in the US study only 3% of the participants were making money over a year’s time. I think that the English study showed that in their group only 2% were making money over a years time.

Now the winners seemed to be divided into two groups those who were making a little money and those who were making a lot.

Tight and aggressive is the key to success in our game. We avoid week hand and situation over and over again. But then the moment we have the advantage we hit them hard again and again. That’s the difference between the players who make a little money and those who make a lot.

Should you ever slow play your big starting hands? Yes, if you feel that raising will kill all of your action.

One of the weaknesses of my game is that I am sooo tight and aggressive, that about 80% of the time I raise early, all of the players at the table will drop their hands. So in my case I need to telling myself to lower my raising requirements until I can train the players at the casino to give me more action. The reason I haven‘t more training id because I loose action pre-flop I like the fact that my reputation usually allows me to thin the players on the later rounds.

Our game: a lifetime of little adjustments.

That you for raising this important topic.

Most sincerely,

Doc AZ

Grammatical errors boring! Sorry! Doc AZ
 

Dear Pei,

I apologize for the number of grammatical errors I made in my response to your post.

I made two mistakes. One was in having the history channel on in the background as I responded. And the other was not hitting the review button before I posted.

But as I said: The question you raised exposes a cardinal poker principle, which we have to believe in and follow if we want to become consistent winners at our game.

Thank you again for raising this important topic.

Most sincerely,

Doc AZ

Re: Good better best decisions!
 

What the hell kind of game is this where the "flop" and the "turn" are the same round?

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I agree that you just leave too much money on the table by not raising with strong hands on the early rounds. If several people have limped and I have split Queens I might just limp, and I'll probably just limp with Jacks or lower. With Aces, though, you're just giving up too much value by not raising. Same goes for Kings, especially if you have a quality kicker.

Great to see you back, Doc.

Andy, an all time favorite! Doc AZ
 

Andy,

What a pleasure to find that you are one of the forum moderators.

Of all the participants that use to be here, I always valued your opinion the most. (Your's and Ray's for high limit games)

I look forward to hearing your advice. And to sharing again with an old friend.

Most sincerely,

Doc AZ

Hello,Presi! There are two schools of thought...
 

regarding ur question:
(1) initially CALL . On 4th ,if ur high,attempt a check-raise to narrow the field. If u do not believe u can narrow the field on 4th,u MIGHT want to attempt a check-raise on 5th when the betting becomes more expensive--assuming no one seemed to have improved and u think that u have the BEST hand on 5th. But this strtegy of risking free cards when u have a very vulnerable hand on 3rd/4th is very risky.
******************************************
(2) Bet ur hand . U will lose about 65%-70% of the time. However,those pots that u do drag in about 30% of the time will more than offset ur losses OVER TIME. This strtegy is the Caro school of thought.
Continue pounding on 4th,5th and 6th if u think that u have the BEST hands on those streets. U are betting for VALUE.

I believe the Caro method will generate MORE profit OVER TIME; however,the other method will most likely pull in MORE POTS.
Keep in mind that poker is about maximizing profit--NOT winning pots. Also realize that if U are selective about ur starting 3rd St. hands and a large field is playing RANDOM 3-card hands,U WILL slaughter the field OVER TIME. BUT expect to lose MOST of the time--about 65% of ur hand.

HappyPokering,
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]SittingBull

DocAZ! Is this REALLY U???
 

UNBELIEVABLE! Where in the WORLD have U been hibernating?? Very nice to see u again,Doc! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
SittingBull

Re: Hello,Presi! There are two schools of thought...
 

I still think there's something to be said for not raising 3rd and leading till 4th or 5th in 5 or 6 person pots in low limit games on the basis of it being way more difficult to tell where you're at. After all, isn't the chance you win this pot quite close to the chance you'd win with a live 3 flush on 3rd. Would you raise with that hand on the same basis?

I'd say 4 out of 5 times I raise with that holding, but when someone acts like they've made a hidden set or, pairs their 4th st card on 5th after you've made kings and deuces, you're way more likely to find yourself on the fence, where you have no clear move. This spot is fairly common when you play against a table, and I think it's more costly as well as more difficult to spot when you've raised into a field that has already called. There's nothing more depressing then realizing you've been out played by a call station on 5th-7th rounds who makes this hand (48)9448 and just keeps over calling.



I guess I'm not replying to the last post... but I'm not going to retype.

Re: Hello,Presi! There are two schools of thought...
 

The general idea that you should raise big pairs even when they won't fold and you will end up losing more often than not is worth repeating. The reason is simple: pot equity. When you raise into a field of five other players, you are putting in about 16.5% of the money, but your big pair will win more often than that . But in stud, unlike he, there are more variables: what are the other people's up cards? (do they have an overcard to your big pair), how live are your pair cards and side cards? And how do people play -- this is often overlooked but really important in low limit games. If you will bascially give away your hand by raising with split kings, and players will be correct in calling a completion anyway once they've commited the bring in, you may sometimes want to wait until fifth to bet or raise -- it's very much a feel decision but it is not always wrong to do this.

In general though, as others have said, it's never a bad thing to get another bet in when you are a money favorite.

Re: Hello,Presi! There are two schools of thought...
 

This brings up a question that I think about quite often. In 7csfap the phrase "play better against" is used in reference to different hands. One of the reasons that "big pairs play better heads up" is that it is way easier not to make a catastrophic error with the big pair when it's heads up. I'd like to hear more ideas on the various meanings of and reasons for hands "playing better (or worse)."