A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

First hand post in probably 6 months, hopefully its somewhat interesting...

MP2 - lag who plays about half his hands and raises about half those - reasonable (but not good) postflop...
MP3 - pretty tight and very passive
CO - decent
Button - loose and passive
BB - new guy


Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Button folds, Hero ???

Comments on preflop and flop please...reasoning for flop decision is my main question, thanks...

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

With this much equity it would be hard for me not to value-raise.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

I have no problems with the PF call, we have a big overlay and by our calling the BB will probably call too. On teh flop, I think I'd like to see a cr threebet by you. You have a real big draw and I wouldn't be shocked if the Hijack has AK or AQ here given your read. Even though you are drawing to the ignorant end of the straight, it could very well be a live draw. Pump that pot

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

Yes 3 bet that.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

ALL-IN!! oops I mean 3-bet. You have just a ton of equity here.

results...
 

yeah, i was looking for if there was any merit to just cold calling here, but it seems to be an easy check/3bet...

results:
i did check/3bet, all called
Turn: 9 (hit straight)
i bet both streets and win nice pot...

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

With 3 people already in for 2 bets.....easy value bet here. Your going to hit one of your draws a good % of the time (9 flush outs+6 straight outs). Even if you miss the turn, you still have tremendous equity.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

It's all good, dude. The preflop call is fine. With that many opponents it's hard not to call with a hand that plays so great multiway, and on the flop, you definitely have enough equity in this pot to three bet. Plus, it's fun to hit the raise button.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

I would have led this flop.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

i don't like leading because of the possibility that PFR will raise and isolate me with a superior hand...

leading has the potential to trap only the BB, while going for a c/r has the potential to trap 3 players...

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like leading because of the possibility that PFR will raise and isolate me with a superior hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

If all of your 15 outs are clean, you are a 64.52% favorite. There is probably not a superior hand out there.

That said, I still love the way you played it for this reason:

[ QUOTE ]
leading has the potential to trap only the BB, while going for a c/r has the potential to trap 3 players...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, the first thing I thought when I read this hand was lead the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

i share your oppinion, but i dont like your reasoning. it is VERY unlikely that the PFR has a superior hand. only a higher flush draw and a set have more than 50% equity against your hand.

compare a 3bet to coldcall...some discussion...
 

when i saw the flop in the is hand i figured taht goign for a c/r is the best play as most would agree, but when its two bets back to me i had to take a second to think about 3betting vs coldcalling...

3 betting
Pros
-get money into the pot with favorable equity
-possibly get free card on the turn if i miss (unlikely)
Cons
-kill the action by check/3betting (seen as monster)
-isolate myself against a superior hand if PFR caps and knocks everyone out
- can't c/r if i hit draw (true or not?)

Cold calling
Pros
- can probably c/r if i hit draw trapping for more bets

Cons
- don't pump draw for value
- looks like i have a draw to anyone paying attention

anything else im not thinking of?
is this a total waste of time?

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

its true that i am most likely a favorite, but in this situation being out of position and isolated against a "made" hand that has control of the play kinda sucks (it doesn't suck but its not the greatest)...

correct me if im wrong, but if he has control of the hand and position then he has taken away some of my weapons for extracting the maximum when i hit, while he can extract while im still drawing...if my draw doesn't come on the turn then i have to check/call, but if it does then it may become obvious (more likely if i complete flush than straight) and i will probably have to lead because of the possibility that it will be checked thru and i miss a bet. Also, a lone A might not call a c/r anyway...the same goes for making my draw on the river, i can't really c/r a flush because it looks like i have a draw after i check/call the turn and i have to lead...

just a lot of babbling or does this make sense?

Re: compare a 3bet to coldcall...some discussion...
 

I like the check 3B b/c of the enormous equity. How about not making any improvements on the turn? Would you bet out or check and call? How about catching a pair on the turn, does that change anything??

Re: compare a 3bet to coldcall...some discussion...
 

My thoughts in italics

[ QUOTE ]
when i saw the flop in the is hand i figured taht goign for a c/r is the best play as most would agree, but when its two bets back to me i had to take a second to think about 3betting vs coldcalling...

3 betting
Pros
-get money into the pot with favorable equity
-possibly get free card on the turn if i miss (unlikely)
Cons
-kill the action by check/3betting (seen as monster)

The action on the flop is probably done already. And if you hit your straight or get 3 players to the turn. You can pull of another c/r and trap the field again with an strong equity edge


-isolate myself against a superior hand if PFR caps and knocks everyone out

Not likely you are facing a superior hand at this point

- can't c/r if i hit draw (true or not?)

Probably true for a flush, but hitting your straight would be so much fun. Plus, you might want to c/r even if you miss(see above). And even for the flush, you will continue to get callers as the pot is so huge.


Cold calling
Pros
- can probably c/r if i hit draw trapping for more bets


Cons
- don't pump draw for value
- looks like i have a draw to anyone paying attention



anything else im not thinking of?
is this a total waste of time?
absolutely not, you are helping me increase my win rate. Thank you.


[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> </font>

Re: compare a 3bet to coldcall...some discussion...
 

if i miss on the turn then i will check/call...

as for pair outs, if i hit a pair on the turn then betting out might be correct, since the flop didn't get capped i imagine that going runner runner for two pair would hold up...

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

i think the solution to the problems you have, getting isolated by a made hand is the following: 3-bet the flop when you get isolated. you are the favorite in the hand and you have the initiative back. if he caps it, check call unimproved, if he calls, bet out on the turn.

i don't want to advocate a bet on the flop, i just want to point out that it is no problem to get isolated in a situation like that.

Re: compare a 3bet to coldcall...some discussion...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not likely you are facing a superior hand at this point

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, jacky brought this up also, while my chances to improve may make my hand "superior" isolating myself against a "made" hands such as AK isn't great since they have position and can extract the max while i am drawing (although its not that big a deal cuz of my super draw) but i don't have the ability to punish them when i hit my draw, especially a flush becuase i am out of position and may whiff i try and c/r...

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

hmmm, im not sure i follow you...

are you saying that you would rather bet/3bet the flop, even though most of the time i will knock out 3 players behind hte PFR that are more likely to call one bet and possibly pay me off when i hit?

while i understand that i have a nice edge, i think that the possibility of getting 1or2 bets from 3 players is better than getting 2or4 from 1 player, especially when it might provide me the opportunity to c/r again on the turn if i hit or pick up more outs by pairing...

i think that getting isolated on the flop sucks because it will damage my potential to collect bets from multiple people on the later streets...

Re: compare a 3bet to coldcall...some discussion...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not likely you are facing a superior hand at this point

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, jacky brought this up also, while my chances to improve may make my hand "superior" isolating myself against a "made" hands such as AK isn't great since they have position and can extract the max while i am drawing (although its not that big a deal cuz of my super draw) but i don't have the ability to punish them when i hit my draw, especially a flush becuase i am out of position and may whiff i try and c/r...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think AK (or the like) is going to cap if you 3-bet, so you are most likely getting 3 callers on your flop 3-bet. If you miss and all 15 outs are still clean, you still have an equity edge. Plus you could pick up another 5 outs by pairing on the turn. And hitting a straight and being able to c/r after the 3-bet, trapping everyone again, would be the coolest thing ever.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

Eh, PF is marginal, the fact that the PFR is a LAG really doesn't matter, because one of these callers has you beaten. You have sufficient overlay to play, I call here.

Flop, easy check/3-bet for an obscene amount of value. The only hangup is the CO calling 2 cold. You can't like that. Despite that, I would still 3-bet here.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only hangup is the CO calling 2 cold. You can't like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, this isn't great, but the pot is sooo big and he is getting about 8-1 depending on further action that there are a lot of hands that he should call two bets with that i am drawing totally live against...

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

no, i think a check raise (or check 3-bet in this case) is fine.

my points were just the following:
- the risk that you get isolated by a superior hand is close to zero, even if you bet out.
- IF you decide to bet out and get isolated it is important to 3 bet
i prefer the checkraise because i want as many callers as possible and a c/r accomlishes that while a bet does not.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
IF you decide to bet out and get isolated it is important to 3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

can you explain this? hopefully i don't seem like im trying to justify a bad play or being a dick, but i would like to see why you think a 3bet is best here (when its now HU and im OOP)...do you think that a hand like AK/AQ isn't gonna showdown?

what is the plan when i 3bet and blank on the turn?

thanks

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you think that a hand like AK/AQ isn't gonna showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think AK/AQ is capping if you 3-bet?

[ QUOTE ]
what is the plan when i 3bet and blank on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

If everybody calls you still have an equity edge - c/r.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

sorry, i should have clarified...

these questions are assuming that i had led the flop, PRF raised, everyone folds, and now the action is back to me...

jacky says to 3bet, i am interested in why?

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry, i should have clarified...

these questions are assuming that i had led the flop, PRF raised, everyone folds, and now the action is back to me...

jacky says to 3bet, i am interested in why?

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. Yeah, that would be a sh*tty position. Yet another reason why the flop c/r is great.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

you are the greatest poker mind in the apartment i live in [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

I'd fold preflop. I don't mind check-3betting the flop but I don't mind check-calling intending to c/r a favorable turn either.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

how low do you go preflop, suited connector?

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

if you get heads up i think there are two reasons why to 3-bet it. the more important is that you have a pot equity edge. this alone justifies a 3-bet. and i believe that you create some fold equity at the turn with a 3-bet. i dont think he will fold AK or AQ, but he might have AJ or AT or maybe even JJ or something like that.

if he doesn't cap it i would bet no matter the turn card (unless you think he is a kind of player who will call the turn bet very close to 100% of the time). even if you think he will fold only about 5% of the time a bet would be worth it (my calculations at this point a rough, especially because its late here in europe, but i hope and think that is correct anyway).


all this is hypothetical of course, because we agree that a check raise on the flop is the best play. but nevertheless very interresting.

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

lol, i love this post [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: A draw in a big pot...56s...
 

[ QUOTE ]
how low do you go preflop, suited connector?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you're getting about 6.5:1, so I probably go down to 98s or so.

Rob