1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

I'm 3-tabling, and no pokertracker yet (I too stoopid to figure it out), so no reads. I'm experimenting with sklansky's reccomendation in HEFAP to not always raise preflop with good starting hands when you won't be able to push people out of pots. this obviously creates a tough situation postflop.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 folds, Hero [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

Don't really try to apply the ideas from HPFAP to small stakes games. These players are playing so badly preflop that the EV we aquire by raising preflop is much larger than any advantage we'd get by not raising.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

you're right about the book being written for playing against good players, but the concept is specifically for loose games where the players will call preflop raises most of the time anyway. the point is that if you raise preflop, you accidentally make players make proper postflop calls because the pot will be large. by limping, we can control the pot size and force our opponents to make mistakes when they call our bets anyway.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

For the love of all that is good and holy in the world raise pf. If you like money in any way, shape or form raise pf. You have position, you can buy the button, you can charge those losers limping in with crap 2sb, you can get dead money in the pot by knocking out the blinds or the poster. Oh did I mention you have one of the top ranked starting hands in poker? Raise pf. The book is not meant for this type of game at all, a loose game at 10/20 is not like a loose game at .5/1, trust me.

In conclusion, raise pf.

Edit: This goes in the micros

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

AK is such a powerful hand that you can't forgo your preflop edge like this. It is difficult to make up the lost bets. Also, in many cases, you can just raise and let the preflop value of the hand win all the money for you.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the love of all that is good and holy in the world raise pf. If you like money in any way, shape or form raise pf. You have position, you can buy the button, you can charge those losers limping in with crap 2sb, you can get dead money in the pot by knocking out the blinds or the poster. Oh did I mention you have one of the top ranked starting hands in poker? Raise pf. The book is not meant for this type of game at all, a loose game at 10/20 is not like a loose game at .5/1, trust me.

In conclusion, raise pf.

Edit: This goes in the micros

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry about posting in the wrong forum (I thought 1/2 was covered here...?). but you didn't really address my point about making players make mistakes on later streets by being forced to call on later streets. adhering blindly to certain standards of play is cool and everything, but this concept seems pretty sound here...?

and how is a loose game at 10/20 different from a loose game at 1/2? rich people who don't study poker don't seem too far from poor people who don't study poker..

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

Next time you think about not raising AK PF, take out two green pieces of paper with George Washington's face on it and light them on fire. Post-flop, if the pot were bigger, i would say call the flop and raise a non-club turn assuming it doesn't get capped back to u. I think that I would just fold here as it's not worth getting involved with.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK is such a powerful hand that you can't forgo your preflop edge like this. It is difficult to make up the lost bets. Also, in many cases, you can just raise and let the preflop value of the hand win all the money for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
eh, I sort of disagree with it being difficult to make up lost bets. you can make up for them because 1) you can value bet your hand when it doesn't improve [am I totally off here? I'm thinking that when you've shown aggression preflop people are more liable to fold] and 2) when you do hit, have sort of a disguised hand for the aforementioned reason.

I hate to seem like I'm just spitting out what I've read (which is partially what I'm doing I guess...), but I'm having trouble convincing myself what that it isn't sound.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Next time you think about not raising AK PF, take out two green pieces of paper with George Washington's face on it and light them on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]
haha.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

The reason there is a difference between this hand and the examples in HPFAP is the postflop skill of the opponents. In HPFAP, even in the section on loose games, Sklansky assumes the players play decently postflop, so by disguising your hand preflop, you are able to better outplay them postflop. In games like online 1/2, the people play so atrociously bad postflop that the edge you lose by not raising preflop is much bigger than the edge you gain through deception.

The loose 1/2 games are different from loose 10/20 games because the players on average play better in 10/20, even if they are still playing too many hands.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

I really appreciate that everyone has taken time to comment on my hand.

that said, SKLANSKY IS ASSUMING THAT THESE PLAYERS PLAY BADLY POSTFLOP.

but forget about what sklansky says. doesn't it make sense? by controlling the pot size, we can force our opponents to make mistakes.. like drawing to a gutshot when the pot is laying 3:1.

I might have been mistaken here, of course. what I was thinking was that with one caller and the poster, it'd be difficult to buy the button (FROM MP2 DUDES [respectfully]) or to shut anyone out of the pot.

so, I limped.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

With a poster and the chance to buy a better position preflop, this is NOT the time to apply this concept.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
or to shut anyone out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there is a decent enough chance at least one of the SB, BB and MP poster will fold when they would have seen the flop otherwise.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

The only time I think it might be appropriate to apply this style of play to micro-limits (and 1/2 goes in micros, btw) is if there are 4-5 limpers before you...THOSE guys won't fold to one more, sometimes even 2 more bets, and raising will just swell the pot. That said, I NEVER apply it in micros with AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ...they're just too strong. Well, maybe AQo.

In this case, you've got 1 limper, 1 poster (random hand) and 2 blinds (random hands). Raising WILL get you the button and at least one of the blinds plus, most likely, the poster out of the hand.

As it stands, get the eff out. You let SB complete with 2 small clubs, probably, and UTG has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-rag...you're done.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

wait why? that poster might hit middle pair when I hit top pair and pay me off, where he might've folded preflop before.. of course he might also hit a straight with 35, but I dunno, it seems like the former would balance out the latter. also, from MP2 I find it hard to buy the button in these games.. I'm guessing this happens like 1/3 times? is that enough?

could you please explain why the poster makes a difference?

I'm hoping that at the very least I can look at this post in a year and laugh/cry.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't it make sense? by controlling the pot size, we can force our opponents to make mistakes.. like drawing to a gutshot when the pot is laying 3:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, yes, that makes strategic sense. By raising with AK preflop, tho, you're making SB make an immediate mistake if he calls 1.5 bets with two small clubs. With 2 limpers and a poster, he's right to call .5 with two small clubs. See?

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

The poster makes a difference because he is basically getting to see the flop for free with any two cards, as is the BB.

By not raising preflop, he has basically announced to the world that he has a hand worse than yours. If he has a hand worse than yours you want him to have to pay a price to draw out on you right?

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

yeah I clearly folded.

I'm also in the middle of like a 40 bet slide over 2 hours 3-tabling, so maybe it's ideas like these that are killing me.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The poster makes a difference because he is basically getting to see the flop for free with any two cards, as is the BB.

By not raising preflop, he has basically announced to the world that he has a hand worse than yours. If he has a hand worse than yours you want him to have to pay a price to draw out on you right?

[/ QUOTE ]
actually, I'd rather charge him more on later streets when the pot odds are NOT going to be correct. maybe I misapplied the concept, though.. this play is probably better with AQos, like another guy said.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

Dear "Man"...

On these boards there are certain hands and specific plays that generate heated discussion, because there are many situations that arise that create very close decisions. I myself have posted two hands just in the last week where I've had people come down right about 50-50 on what the best decision was.

But playing 1/2 online poker and not raising AK is simply not even a close decision. I'm sorry to tell you you're simply misapplying the Sklansky analysis from HEPFAP. That book is written for playing in games where the median player is much better than the median 1/2 player. Even if you find yourself in the midst of a loose 10/20 game, it will almost never be as loose as a typical 1/2 game...and even if it is, it will almost never be with people with such poor postflop decision-making abilities. And EVEN in a loose 10/20, failing to raise AK in this situation is USUALLY a mistake. In 1/2, it is a clear mistake. Long-run, if you play even 10% of your AK hands in this manner, you will not make as much money from them as if you simply raised every time you were faced with a similar situation.

Every poster (most, if not all of them more experienced than me) has told you this. It is now simply down to whether you choose to accept the advice of 100% of respondents to your post or ignore that advice because of how you've (mis)applied Sklansky's loose games advice in HEPFAP.

That decision is entirely yours...and I do wish you good luck with it.

-Derek

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
doesn't it make sense? by controlling the pot size, we can force our opponents to make mistakes.. like drawing to a gutshot when the pot is laying 3:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, yes, that makes strategic sense. By raising with AK preflop, tho, you're making SB make an immediate mistake if he calls 1.5 bets with two small clubs. With 2 limpers and a poster, he's right to call .5 with two small clubs. See?

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah but come on, what if he doesn't make that immediate mistake! you're right, I would sleep soundly if I could count on him to call 1.5 bets with a crap hand, but the thing is I feel mich more comfortable giving him the chance to make a mistake.

I think I misapplied the concept and will raise next time, but I'm not completely convinced that this isn't a viable play.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

thanks for the thoughtful post.

[ QUOTE ]
That book is written for playing in games where the median player is much better than the median 1/2 player. Even if you find yourself in the midst of a loose 10/20 game, it will almost never be as loose as a typical 1/2 game...and even if it is, it will almost never be with people with such poor postflop decision-making abilities.

[/ QUOTE ]
sklansky is explicitly referring to people who have poor postflop skills. and why do you guys refer to what you think sklansky means? doesn't the concept make sense on its own in this game?

don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure now that I misapplied this concept, and I'm not really trying to be insolent, but I guess I'm just still looking for answers.

edit: and with all due respect, how [the F] do you get the idea that I'm ignoring this advice?? think about it...

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the thoughtful post.

[ QUOTE ]
That book is written for playing in games where the median player is much better than the median 1/2 player. Even if you find yourself in the midst of a loose 10/20 game, it will almost never be as loose as a typical 1/2 game...and even if it is, it will almost never be with people with such poor postflop decision-making abilities.

[/ QUOTE ]
sklansky is explicitly referring to people who have poor postflop skills. and why do you guys refer to what you think sklansky means? doesn't the concept make sense on its own in this game?

don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure now that I misapplied this concept, and I'm not really trying to be insolent, but I guess I'm just still looking for answers.

edit: and with all due respect, how [the F] do you get the idea that I'm ignoring this advice?? think about it...

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't gotten the idea that you're ignoring this advice. I told you the choice was yours to either accept the advice or ignore it. Plus, when I wrote that response, all I had read of yours had been disagreement (which obviously, is fine...but prompted me to frame the choice in that manner).

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah but come on, what if he doesn't make that immediate mistake! you're right, I would sleep soundly if I could count on him to call 1.5 bets with a crap hand, but the thing is I feel mich more comfortable giving him the chance to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when DO you propose to give him an opportunity to make a mistake? Say, for instance, the flop comes mono-suited, king-high. What then? You don't think you're better off giving him a chance to make a mistake as early as possible, unless (and it's a big UNLESS) you're holding a made, near-nut hand?

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

I think you've just got a bad case of FPS. Try playing good hands quickly, and folding bad hands for a while...that usually clears it up.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
sklansky is explicitly referring to people who have poor postflop skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, "poor" is different than "atrocious". His loose players make poor postflop decisions by choice, not because they don't know any better. You're dealing with people in 1/2 online that will chase any (or no) little-bitty-tiny-microscopic piece of the flop all the way to the river and suckout your AK two-pair hand with 93o from the SB when the board comes AK3-7-3.

Make them start making wrong decisions as early as you can.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sklansky is explicitly referring to people who have poor postflop skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, "poor" is different than "atrocious". His loose players make poor postflop decisions by choice, not because they don't know any better. You're dealing with people in 1/2 online that will chase any (or no) little-bitty-tiny-microscopic piece of the flop all the way to the river and suckout your AK two-pair hand with 93o from the SB when the board comes AK3-7-3.

Make them start making wrong decisions as early as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, you're pretty much right. but just because vindication feels so good, sklansky does recommend not always raising AK in loose games with very bad postflop players. (obviously it's debatable in this situation, and I'm not really convinced either way.. but just because I trust you guys so very much I don't plan on using this play for a long time.) the advice I was referring to was from pages 157 to 164 if you have HEFAP.

and I don't mind getting sucked out on as long as my opponent made a wrong call to get there.

as a side note, I've been beaten by two preflop unraised AK's in the last half hour. silly poker gods.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Next time you think about not raising AK PF, take out two green pieces of paper with George Washington's face on it and light them on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd get a good laugh out of that except for the fact I once resembled this thread.

Thank you for the brotherly knock-me-on-my-ass Entity. Even though I wasn't "exposed".

I no longer do this.

man... don't argue here. Raise AK preflop, 3 bet it and get your money in there. Read SSHE. Listen to the bros here.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the thoughtful post.

[ QUOTE ]
That book is written for playing in games where the median player is much better than the median 1/2 player. Even if you find yourself in the midst of a loose 10/20 game, it will almost never be as loose as a typical 1/2 game...and even if it is, it will almost never be with people with such poor postflop decision-making abilities.

[/ QUOTE ]
sklansky is explicitly referring to people who have poor postflop skills. and why do you guys refer to what you think sklansky means? doesn't the concept make sense on its own in this game?

don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure now that I misapplied this concept, and I'm not really trying to be insolent, but I guess I'm just still looking for answers.

edit: and with all due respect, how [the F] do you get the idea that I'm ignoring this advice?? think about it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Define "poor postflop skills" of 1/2 to 10/20 games.

Then compare the poor ball handling skills between the high school and Division 1 games and then to the NBA.

HEFAP is not designed for the 1/2 high school games, get it? Now raise AK every time at 1/2.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

I think you're underestimating the effects a raise is likely to have here. Given that you got three folds behind you, a raise probably drives out the SB, and maybe the BB too.

Personally, you're right on the line where I'd consider raising v. calling. Earlier, and it's a lock-raise. Later, and depending on # of limpers, it leans toward calling..

Also, even if you raise PF, you can control the size of the pot on the flop/turn. If your raise gets you the button, you're in a prime spot to check thr flop and watch a 10 bet pot become a 5 bet pot if you want/need to control odds.

Re: 1/2 AK unraised preflop...
 

40 bet slide. Hah, you'll look back on this someday and laugh that you ever worried about a 40 bet slide when 3-tabling. It's not that it doesn't sting, it's just that it's very often not meaningful.

I had a 40 bet slide at 5/10 live last week. I got back to -10 BB, and would have made up the rest if it weren't 3am, and the table slowly shrinking and me getting tired.